old crowbar13 wrote:
Pappy nailed it. Good coaches know how to get kids to listen, pay attention, follow through, etc. Kids have new distractions for sure but they haven't changed all that much since I started coaching 38 years ago.
There are people who say the are "self-coached," there were in the 1970s, 80s, and 90s as well.
Heck Paavo Nurmi probably claimed he was self-coached. That does not mean that they did not have someone advise them at one time or another. (Nurmi did have a coach.)
yep no problem here!
Listen to my coach? That's a great idea!
Race 3x a week and do hard workouts for the other 3 days, and don't run anything over 20mpw because it's obviously junk miles. Oh boy I'm gonna become so fast!!!
coach knows EVERYTHING wrote:
Listen to my coach? That's a great idea!
Race 3x a week and do hard workouts for the other 3 days, and don't run anything over 20mpw because it's obviously junk miles. Oh boy I'm gonna become so fast!!!
TALK to your coach. If he will not listen to you, have the whole team of distance runners talk to him.
Take action.
waltertompatton wrote:
TALK to your coach. If he will not listen to you, have the whole team of distance runners talk to him.
Take action.
I was a high school coach, and I disagree with you completely. A clipboard and a stopwatch don't entitle you to respect. If kids aren't listening to the coach, it's the coach's fault because he hasn't given them a reason to trust him.
This goes double for sports like running, where there's no reason everyone has to be on the exact same page. Moreover, bad coaching doesn't just screw up the performance of the team at particular competitions over which the coach presides; bad running coaching literally damages the bodies of young athletes.
I'm not saying kids should necessarily start by presuming that their coach is incompetent (though many are). I'm saying that high school students are thinking, rational creatures who shouldn't be expected to entrust their growing bodies to the dictatorial whims of a stranger, just because he happens to be free every day at 3pm.
800 dude wrote:
waltertompatton wrote:
TALK to your coach. If he will not listen to you, have the whole team of distance runners talk to him.
Take action.
I was a high school coach, and I disagree with you completely. A clipboard and a stopwatch don't entitle you to respect. If kids aren't listening to the coach, it's the coach's fault because he hasn't given them a reason to trust him.
This goes double for sports like running, where there's no reason everyone has to be on the exact same page. Moreover, bad coaching doesn't just screw up the performance of the team at particular competitions over which the coach presides; bad running coaching literally damages the bodies of young athletes.
I'm not saying kids should necessarily start by presuming that their coach is incompetent (though many are). I'm saying that high school students are thinking, rational creatures who shouldn't be expected to entrust their growing bodies to the dictatorial whims of a stranger, just because he happens to be free every day at 3pm.
Good post.
However we are all human. Even coaches are human and do not realize when they are wrong.
Trust me approaching the coach as a team will work!!!
(By the way, why didn't you post on my thread, "Jordan Hasay should leave Salazar behind."
What you just said is a perfect post for that thread!)
waltertompatton wrote:
WakeUpPeople wrote:
Crowbar, the fact that 'old' is in your name would suggest that you remember, or even participated in the so-called running boom. Maybe not. If you did, I can't think you'd find my point (which is that just because your school district hires a coach you don't have to be coached by him/her) bizarre at all.
My personal experiences, along with those of the 3 guys I ran with the most, might not mean much. We were certainly not worthy of appearing on the cover of any magazines. However, by running road races - a 20 mile in early November (wouldn't that conflict with XC season) or a marathon in March (wouldn't that conflict with track?) or various 10ks during the school year - we noticed a lot of kids our age competing against us.
Who cares? Well, it shows that non-school-affiliated training and racing is not only possible but was common among teenagers as recently as the '80s. Whoever won my age group at the 20 ( it must have been pretty near 2 hours flat since I did 2:11 and wasn't top 3) definitely didn't run a cross race the day before, the road race in question being on a Sunday. These kids were probably not part of any school team. I'm being vague and using 'probably' because we didn't know them if they were from another school or district. These days you'd stand out and the kids would know each other if they were on the local road circuit, but there were a dozen good ones at every race, it wasn't considered remarkable, and they didn't know me either.
Again, why is this relevant to anything? 2 reasons: it worked then; and it can be done now? Being self-coached really did work in the '70s and '80s. The top pros were not all part of well-established groups like BTC or up-and-coming groups like Saucony Freedom. Herb Lindsay was (as far as I knew, correct me if you know otherwise) self-coached; Shorter was self-coached after Yale (which is to say, the whole time he was good) as was Bacheler. These guys, including Rodgers, who wasn't coached by Squires after Squires signed with NB, were not my generation but they were just before it. They were our role models. Just a little older than me were Virgin and Salazar. According to Al's autobiography he was with Dillinger for a while but on his own for most of his prime.
You say it ends badly and that is occasionally true. I included Salazar to be objective, although a Comrade's course record is not a terrible fate or embarrassing last race. Ryan Hall wasn't anywhere near the runner he ended up being when he was formally coached by a school. Keep in mind for Hall that such was only the case at Stanford, where his performances were unremarkable, as his High School didn't have a coach and he started running on his own. Lukas V was not coached by his school nor were Fisher or Cain (nor Efraimson, I believe) at her prime. So the lone road warrior isn't just a thing of the past; it happens still.
You may point out that some of the above did end in a train wreck. At least all were good at some point. How many kids with the combination of terrible school coaching and lack of vision to go without it don't ever get good? How many of these stories end badly. A 4 year stint of 16th placing in bush-league meets never to run a step afterward. The kids coming to the MB to complain about the school's coach (and there were several on this thread alone, not to mention the threads they start daily) crash and burn without ever even tasting their potential success. Is this your preferred outcome? How many of these unhappy kids could go under 33 for 10km? Modestly talented though I was, there are a lot of 17yo on the board that couldn't have beaten me at 15. I'm not saying Salazar at 25, but the thoroughly unimpressive me at 15. Some of them are never going under 3 in a marathon no matter what. But if I could do it during my first year of HS I have to think a lot of them are being held back by the very coaches they come here to complain about.
I would like someone to define "self-coached." In most of the situations you describe you were in fact coached by your high school coach~~~although you did not like his theories. Even if someone were to graduate high school and compete on their own for 5 years, most of what they have learned they learned from someone else. I claimed to be self-coached for a bit of time. But it is far better to have someone advise you even if they are someone you race against. This has been done and is being done.
I think you disregard the help you got in high school. You disrespect your coach.
How could I be disregarding or disrespecting someone I never met? I had no affiliation with the school track team and neither, it seemed to me (I say 'seemed' because I didn't sneak out to the track to spy on the team) did the guys I ran with or the guys ahead of us at races.
To an earlier poster who suggested my teenage times get faster as time goes by, yeah, I understand it's hard to believe a teenage who didn't get any press ran the times I mentioned, but keep in mind I wasn't necessarily winning my age group, which means a lot of kids ran 32-33 10kms and 2:40-2:45 marathons. It was common and not noteworthy. Of course superstars were quite a bit faster; I'm just referring to average teenagers who had the guts (it didn't take much although today's youth lacks them) not to agree to being on the school's team and be coached by the a school's coach. You simply didn't go into the gym on sign-up day much less walk over to the table where the coach was sitting. That's how easy it was to avoid the coach that teenagers constantly complain about on this thread and at least one other started daily. Again, if you complain about 'your coach', it's no one's fault but your own that he's 'your coach'.
To the poster suggesting you can't get into a race without being school-affiliated, it didn't seem to be a problem for me (and again, a lot of other teenagers in the same races with equally unimpressive times). Is there someone asking for a student ID or something?
One last point: no one claims Ryan Hall wasn't coached at Stanford. A lot of people - including me - claim he wasn't coached at the time he ran the 4th fastest time ever at Boston in spite of a roll call of superstars running the same course every year.
waltertompatton wrote:
I'm saying that high school students are thinking, rational creatures.
3/10
Well you had me until this line. Teenagers are anything but rational. We had all the but-in and were having a banner year. One kid decides to go off road motorcycling (despite never gone before), crashes and ends his season. Another decided to do 12x400 in the Sunday after regionals because he felt he didn’t have a good race and was injured at the state meet. Another year our top girl went off on her own and ran a 3 mile time trial the Thursday before state meet to “learn her pace” (her Dad’s advice). Of course these are rare but demonstrates the irrational thought process of this age group.
There are many terrible HS coaches out there. But often times the worst one is yourself.
waltertompatton wrote:
I'm saying that high school students are thinking, rational creatures.
3/10
Well you had me until this line. Teenagers are anything but rational. We had all the but-in and were having a banner year. One kid decides to go off road motorcycling (despite never gone before), crashes and ends his season. Another decided to do 12x400 in the Sunday after regionals because he felt he didn’t have a good race and was injured at the state meet. Another year our top girl went off on her own and ran a 3 mile time trial the Thursday before state meet to “learn her pace” (her Dad’s advice). Of course these are rare but demonstrates the irrational thought process of this age group.
There are many terrible HS coaches out there. But often times the worst one is yourself.
You had me until... wrote:
waltertompatton wrote:
I'm saying that high school students are thinking, rational creatures.
3/10
Well you had me until this line. Teenagers are anything but rational. We had all the but-in and were having a banner year. One kid decides to go off road motorcycling (despite never gone before), crashes and ends his season. Another decided to do 12x400 in the Sunday after regionals because he felt he didn’t have a good race and was injured at the state meet. Another year our top girl went off on her own and ran a 3 mile time trial the Thursday before state meet to “learn her pace” (her Dad’s advice). Of course these are rare but demonstrates the irrational thought process of this age group.
There are many terrible HS coaches out there. But often times the worst one is yourself.
I checked ALL of my quotes and I never said or even IMPLIED that!!!
Please do not lie. (It is possible that you read a quote within one of my quotes but I never said that. I never said it!!!)
There are good coaches and bad coaches. I only ran track in HS my senior year. I was injured freshman and sophomore years. My high school had a different track coach than the cross country coach. My junior year the track coach who didn't like me wanted to force me to quit intramural basketball the last week of the season to do the first week of track. My friends already told me he planned to kick me off the team so I finished the basketball playoffs. The next week I go out for track and the coach had me do 40 quarters under 75 to stay on the team. This was the first day of practice. After 30 he realized I was going to do them all so he shortened the rest. I still remember him calling me soft and weak while doing them. I finished all 40 and never went back that year. My senior year the same coach was caught throwing out my recruiting letters from colleges. My senior year I went out for track after basketball again but that coach left me alone. That worked out fine for me, I ended up All-State without his help.
So, waltertompatton how much respect should of I given that coach?
Thoughts wrote:
There are good coaches and bad coaches. I only ran track in HS my senior year. I was injured freshman and sophomore years. My high school had a different track coach than the cross country coach. My junior year the track coach who didn't like me wanted to force me to quit intramural basketball the last week of the season to do the first week of track. My friends already told me he planned to kick me off the team so I finished the basketball playoffs. The next week I go out for track and the coach had me do 40 quarters under 75 to stay on the team. This was the first day of practice. After 30 he realized I was going to do them all so he shortened the rest. I still remember him calling me soft and weak while doing them. I finished all 40 and never went back that year. My senior year the same coach was caught throwing out my recruiting letters from colleges. My senior year I went out for track after basketball again but that coach left me alone. That worked out fine for me, I ended up All-State without his help.
So, waltertompatton how much respect should of I given that coach?
Good answer and either this was a troll or you were unusually talented.
However I understand the feeling. There are coaches who are stickler for their rules and yes they are often fired! Maybe you could have done him a big favor by talking to him at a time other than track & field practice.
Probably everyone on LRC has had to deal/work with an individual such as you describe.
What's the procedure for change here?
1. Talk to the individual yourself.
2. Have the team talk to him with you. (He will be mad~so what! You guys have the power.)
3. Go to the administration (In my experience they would be all too GLAD to help you especially
if you do steps 1 and 2)
Thoughts wrote:
There are good coaches and bad coaches. I only ran track in HS my senior year. I was injured freshman and sophomore years. My high school had a different track coach than the cross country coach. My junior year the track coach who didn't like me wanted to force me to quit intramural basketball the last week of the season to do the first week of track. My friends already told me he planned to kick me off the team so I finished the basketball playoffs. The next week I go out for track and the coach had me do 40 quarters under 75 to stay on the team. This was the first day of practice. After 30 he realized I was going to do them all so he shortened the rest. I still remember him calling me soft and weak while doing them. I finished all 40 and never went back that year. My senior year the same coach was caught throwing out my recruiting letters from colleges. My senior year I went out for track after basketball again but that coach left me alone. That worked out fine for me, I ended up All-State without his help.
So, waltertompatton how much respect should of I given that coach?
In the 1960s, 70s, and 80s this kind of a story is not as much of an exaggeration as it would seem.
However it looks like you got some payback. Now what are you doing with your life going forward?
Do not let his actions hold you back. Forgive him and move on.
The story is not an exaggeration and not a troll. I had some talent but most of my talent came from the work I put in. I actually always thought I was the third most talented guy on my team. In the winter of my junior year I was averaging 60 mpw and playing basketball. Yes, this was in the 80's.
I just shared because you seem to just want to take the coaches side on things. I had 6 different coaches. 1 was great, 2 were very good, 2 were ok because they meant well, and one was a complete tool.
Thoughts:
Thank you for responding. I have heard of people like your coach in other sports. Like the guy who thinks he wins basketball games and not the players. So he winds up berating the officials even when the team is winning!
waltertompatton wrote:
would have could have wrote:
Ryan Hall ran 2:04:58 without a coach.
Not true...his wife Sare Bei Hall, who is a world class runner herself, advised him.
Look enough is enough. Get off of letsrun and take your diluted insanity with you. Go write your posts to yourself and leave us all alone on letsrun.
You had me until... wrote:
waltertompatton wrote:
I'm saying that high school students are thinking, rational creatures.
3/10
Well you had me until this line. Teenagers are anything but rational. We had all the but-in and were having a banner year. One kid decides to go off road motorcycling (despite never gone before), crashes and ends his season. Another decided to do 12x400 in the Sunday after regionals because he felt he didn’t have a good race and was injured at the state meet. Another year our top girl went off on her own and ran a 3 mile time trial the Thursday before state meet to “learn her pace” (her Dad’s advice). Of course these are rare but demonstrates the irrational thought process of this age group.
There are many terrible HS coaches out there. But often times the worst one is yourself.
***Look back it was 800 dude who said, "I'm saying that high school students are thinking, rational creatures."
hospitaltime. wrote:
waltertompatton wrote:
Not true...his wife Sare Bei Hall, who is a world class runner herself, advised him.
Look enough is enough. Get off of letsrun and take your diluted insanity with you. Go write your posts to yourself and leave us all alone on letsrun.
I'm guessing you must have been the person who said "Ryan Hall ran 2:04:58 without a coach."
All I did was correct you. If you think I am wrong look up Sara Bei Hall! I'm sure you know some things that I do not know. I am not perfect though. If you can prove that I am wrong please do that!
RIP: D3 All-American Frank Csorba - who ran 13:56 in March - dead
RENATO can you talk about the preparation of Emile Cairess 2:06
Great interview with Steve Cram - says Jakob has no chance of WRs this year
Running for Bowerman Track Club used to be cool now its embarrassing
Hats off to my dad. He just ran a 1:42 Half Marathon and turns 75 in 2 months!
2024 College Track & Field Open Coaching Positions Discussion