2:25 marathon attempt in May, should I pop my marathon cherry with an easy one in February or shoot for another fast HM?

He does have long runs with segments at T pace. The longest and most challenging, the way I do it, is 22 miles, with 2 mile up, 4 miles of tempo (usually done as 4 x 1 mile with a 1:00 rest or 2 x 2 miles with 2:00 rest), 10 miles easy, then 3- miles at tempo pace either in the form of more broken intervals or a 3 mile steady effort (which ends up being a little closer to M pace than T pace about half of the time).

And yes, that is arduous, but I definitely think I would find the marathon approach more challenging.

But the choice you presented wasn't between the Daniels workout and the marathon, right? You are deciding between a half marathon race and a full marathon distance run, with most of it at a challenging (but presumably manageable) pace with a hard last 10k coming after 20 moderate-to-hard miles.

As to which I would find more helpful, well, I suspect from the fact that you raised the Daniels issue in response to my comment, you know I am a Daniels guy. So I have had the opportunity to make that choice, and I have chosen the Daniels workout each time. There are certainly other ways to get to the same fitness place, but I think that the threshold work is more important than getting the 26.2 distance in. Again, part of that might be because of my particular circumstances as a middle aged guy who has needed a fair amount of time to recover from his marathons. So what is best for me is just that - the right thing for me; I get you may decide it isn't the right thing for everyone.

But I'd still race the half marathon.

My wife says two months is long enough to recover and I concur

The core of your workout progression (and average mileage over the next several months) likely will determine your marathon time more than picking between the two races (half v. full).

HOWEVER, if you race that first marathon too hard (even a 2:35-2:40 might be a stretch for you as a "workout"/long run) that recovery time and stress could put you over the edge. I think some 35km-40km hard long runs are good as marathon training, but usually those are best done on dirt/gravel roads and only have surges down to marathon goal pace. Even if you were in 2:25 shape in February and ran 2:35 in training on pavement that would be a pretty big effort (esp without a taper). If you decided "no faster than 2:40-2:45" and made sure it was a controlled negative split, than that would be much better.

If you can, decide after the Houston half what you want to do (depending on how that goes). Depending on weather, Houston could very well be faster than Gasparilla since there will probably be more runners in the 1:08-1:09 range.

So see how the first half goes. It is likely you will just need more stamina/strength (extension training) as most first-time marathoners learn the hard way in the last 10km of their debut marathon.

That's some sage advice.

My original goal at the beginning of my training block was

1) sub-1:09 at Houston,

2) sub-1:08 at another local HM in February

3) Do a small buildup for a low-key sub-2:30 attempt in April/May

4) Rest, recover, and go into long-term marathon training from there

Since the marathon wasn't my focus yet, I figured just getting under 2:30 would be nice heading into more serious training. Then I discovered the local half has gone way down in quality, and wouldn't be a good place to go for 1:07/1:08. It's competitive, but it usually goes 1:09-1:10 and thins out quickly. So that frees up time to do a longer marathon buildup.

I was trying to find results for Gasparilla but they wouldn't load.

Any other results locations?

I like the idea of reassessing after Houston. Instead of extending my current training block to February for that local half, I'm more or less going into a marathon-specific block after that. Daniels' 18-week marathon plan is more or less my inspiration (looking at you, Smoove).

I appreciate everyone's feedback. It helps to bounce ideas of other experienced guys.

Instead of a half or full, why try to find a 30k? I feel like the half is not the best indicator for a full, because the goes through very different things in a full. A 30k seems just right as a good indicator for your marathon without the stress of a full and the ambiguity of a half.

Smoove wrote:

Screw it, I'll be the sole dissenter. I say run the half. I hear youbthat you aren't planning on running the marathon all out, but it is still going to be a significant effort on your part if you're guessing you're in 2:25 shape. Lots of things can happen over the course of 26.2, and it would be a shame for you to get injured or exacerbate a niggle by way of he intermediate marathon.

Yes, it can happen at any time even in the half. And maybe I'm projecting because I've personally felt best to hell after my three marathons (which may be attibutable to age), but it seems that the marathon distance, even at lesss than 100% effort, does raise the likelihood significantly.

i agree with Smoove, as usual.

run the half marathon not the marathon. marathons are beasts and take more out of you than you think. i promise you this.

right now you're looking at everything on paper and it aligns nicely, but that's not how life and training works.... there will be fatigue, there will be setbacks. it'll be hard enough just running that mileage and staying focused for 14-16 weeks. I'd consider training for the half and then doing 10 wks marathon training (works best for me, physically and mentally)

just running under 2:28 should probably be your goal. the last 4 miles are terrible in your first one.

good luck

I was able to find results here. 8 guys under 1:10, but with a pretty broad range and this pretty spread out. I'm actually running Houston too, and may run Gasparilla, but I'm deciding between the 15k and the half. But I'll be a fair amount behind you at both races.

http://results.xacte.com/v2/#/e/1375/leaders

You’re rolling the dice with weather doing a late spring marathon. Go for it in Feb.

Have you considered the 2-mile fun-run option? Many marathons have this distance included and you still get the t-shirt (but no medal). So if it the finisher's medal you seek then the marathon is a must do.

Smoove wrote:

I was able to find results here. 8 guys under 1:10, but with a pretty broad range and this pretty spread out. I'm actually running Houston too, and may run Gasparilla, but I'm deciding between the 15k and the half. But I'll be a fair amount behind you at both races.

http://results.xacte.com/v2/#/e/1375/leaders

Nice find. That is quite a spread. I may be better off staying home for the local half. The primary goal of this training block is to prep myself for future training. If I get some PRs out of it, that's a nice bonus, but I'm not crazy about a lot of travel for iffy chances at big PRs.

You're shooting for 1:10ish? That's about where my fitness is right now. I'm expecting to see some drops in time in the next few weeks.

spring back wrote:

You’re rolling the dice with weather doing a late spring marathon. Go for it in Feb.

Agreed it's rolling the dice. The race I'm looking at typically has favorable weather, but maybe 1 in 5 years is warm/humid (mid-60s with 60° dew points). Honestly, time doesn't matter as much this cycle as just getting into good form and getting through my first marathon. If I can pop off a good time, all the better. If it ends up too warm for that, I won't cry too much over it.

Racing all out in February would make my marathon training block too short. I think it's important to go through a good cycle. That will help me in the future more than hitting any specific time.

I'd like to break 1:11 at Houston, which would be a PR (didn't seriously race the half marathon until I was 41 (the year I set my PR at 1:11:12 - I will be 46 on race day in Houston)). I am going to run a half this weekend to see how realistic that is, and to see if maybe I can get a bit more aggressive than 1:10:59.

Smoove wrote:

I'd like to break 1:11 at Houston, which would be a PR (didn't seriously race the half marathon until I was 41 (the year I set my PR at 1:11:12 - I will be 46 on race day in Houston)). I am going to run a half this weekend to see how realistic that is, and to see if maybe I can get a bit more aggressive than 1:10:59.

Nice! Best of luck to you.

If you do the first marathon, don't do it "comfortably hard" as some are suggesting. In race conditions, comfortably hard IS your marathon pace. If you don't want to interfere with subsequent training, I promise you that you will have to consciously put on the brakes for almost the entire race. Set a firm speed limit and stick to it.

I say do it. There's nothing magic about 26 miles. People run hard 22s in training all the time. I once got lost and my hard 22 became 24.5. I don't think that I would've turned into a pumpkin if I'd kept running for ten more minutes.

800 dude wrote:

If you do the first marathon, don't do it "comfortably hard" as some are suggesting. In race conditions, comfortably hard IS your marathon pace. If you don't want to interfere with subsequent training, I promise you that you will have to consciously put on the brakes for almost the entire race. Set a firm speed limit and stick to it.

I say do it. There's nothing magic about 26 miles. People run hard 22s in training all the time. I once got lost and my hard 22 became 24.5. I don't think that I would've turned into a pumpkin if I'd kept running for ten more minutes.

best advice

OP: we are all excited for your inevitable Olympic debut. Go for the gold broh. Rest assured, in any NYC race, I will be right behind you, sharpie in hand, pleading for your signature on my Brooks...in the corrals, prior to race of course

Hoppy Jogger wrote:

OP: we are all excited for your inevitable Olympic debut. Go for the gold broh. Rest assured, in any NYC race, I will be right behind you, sharpie in hand, pleading for your signature on my Brooks...in the corrals, prior to race of course

Poser.

OP, I don't think it would destroy you to run the marathon, but forget about doing the last 10k at GMP. Just go for the win, and even ease up in the last couple miles if you're able to, like a cooldown. Don't shoot for any specific time but give yourself some limits in case somebody faster shows up and starts running 5:40s or even 5:50s

As for recovery, do everything you can immediately after the race. Eat a lot, get a massage, wear compression gear, sleep a ton.

I love the optimism but:

It all looks good on paper, but the fact that you let yourself go and got chubby :) makes me think you like the idea of running 2:25 or faster, but you haven't even run a solid 1/2 yet.

I think you have the ability, but that doesn't mean it will happen. Injury and motivation are major limiters.

Have you run a 1/2 before or recent 10 miler to suggest you will be able to pop your cherry?