Kevin Castille set a M 45-49 age group world record in the 10K on the roads today

runnah wrote:

I disagree with doping and I personally think that distance running should be made strictly amateur again to remove the financial incentive to dope. The other advantage of doing this would be that people would not be feeling "robbed" it they were beaten by someone who was doping - the doper would probably be risking their health for no material gain

I don't believe that masters runners (or other runners) dope for financial gain. They dope because they want to succeed and to beat others.

By the time we become masters runners, nearly all of us are established in a career path and financially stable. I sometimes win money as a masters runner, and I'm certainly happy when I do (and will sometimes target races with prize money for that reason). But the possibility of winning money is not what is driving me competitively. If it was about the money, I'd quit running and just use the time to work more - I definitely earn much more per hour working than I do running.

People dope for the same reason that they race - they want to win. Removing money from the equation doesn't quell that urge to compete.

At the very top of the sport - those who are contending to win a WMM or Olympic title, I'm sure the possibility of winning money does come into the equation. But there's plenty of doping at the local levels too - and it's not about money there.

Most of these people are also pretty active on social media, posting all sorts of crap about their hobby. Those are the same ones that are walking up to the clinic for their TRT treatment. Vanity, it's amazing.

Taking Castille out of the discussion for a moment, I completely agree with Darkwave.

Lots of people doping because they want to beat others. I suspect that some are doping because they think everyone else is doping and feel like they cannot compete if they don't.

As far as the ease of doing this, I will say I cannot imagine it would take much effort. I get an annual physical and my GP suggested without prompting that I have my testosterone levels tested. I mean, he asked some questions about my libido and energy levels first, but those questions were unprompted, and my response was basically "I have been with the same woman for a decade and I have three young kids at home - what do you think my libido and energy levels are like?" From that he suggested the testing. I declined because I wasn't going on TRT regardless of the test results (didn't want to have to deal with side effects, didn't want to inhibit my natural production of T, didn't want to be a cheater). But this wasn't even an anti-aging guy, just my general practitioner. I honestly think part of it was that he knew I was a competitive masters runner and was genuinely curious to see what impact the TRT would have on my performance.

I will say that seeing other guys out there performing at levels that, when age graded, are wildly out of line with their performances during their college years has really been a huge challenge for me. Being clean and seeing other guys run around the same times as me when they had less natural talent and are not outworking me at this point makes me wonder sometimes whether it is worth it to try to compete at high levels. I always conclude that it is, but the question keeps presenting itself.

So those who are saying that the dopers aren't really impacting anyone else are just wrong.

darkwave wrote:

I don't believe that masters runners (or other runners) dope for financial gain.

Ummm......ever hear of Eddy Hellenbuyk? Tens of thousands in prize money plus a coaching business. And other masters make their living on the back of their credentials as older runners. I won't name names in order to protect those who are innocent.

There is also the "rejuvenation" aspect, which is the main selling point fo rthe public at large.

So the payoff for doping with T/HGH etc. is threefold: professional, personal, social.

Smoove wrote:

As far as the ease of doing this, I will say I cannot imagine it would take much effort. I get an annual physical and my GP suggested without prompting that I have my testosterone levels tested.

For women, some treatments for menopause include small amounts of testosterone. HGH is also sometimes considered.

Any time I see a woman start running really well in her late 40 to mid-50s, I wonder. I doubly wonder when she's racing hard back to back weeks in a row. I can completely believe that masters runners can run very fast with intelligent training. I don't believe that they can run stellar times close together.

Speaking more broadly, there's a gap here, in that doctors generally are not familiar with or don't care about USADA/WADA - I've been prescribed stuff multiple times that I've had to decline, since it's not allowed under WADA.

So...the doctor doesn't care/know about WADA, and the athlete chooses to (intentionally) blindly accept whatever is prescribed, assuming (again, disingenuously, IMO) that if a doctor prescribes it, it has to be allowed. And that's one way that people rationalize doping.

I was listening to a podcast about my main sport, where I am close to a significant age-group world record. It was an interview with a previous record-holder for this category, who is ten years older now. He openly admitted to using injected T for three years and injected HGH for a period of three months. He claims it was after setting the record, and that it didn't improve his performance, and he had negative side-effects in his PSA so he stopped.

He was pretty nonchalant, and spoke of another older athlete, who I suspect could be the current record-holder (they know each other) for whom T injection was working. This other guy was able to double his workload in training and trial attempts.

Dispiriting to say the least to hear this talked about so casually, as I don't even bother with vitamins (just eat fresh organic whole foods), but I know I am better off in the long haul. I now have no doubts that many many older guys are doping in this way.

Kevin’s efforts get me excited not bummed.

His efforts seem possible. Not for me...but possible.

Sub 30 in a 10k with his talent and a ton of work is doable. Again not for me...but someone who has done it maybe.

I’m not a genetic freak and don’t have a college pedigree... I train reasonably hard ....but there is room to do a ton more miles and effort.

His results make me question my work ethic and dicipline.

He looks wicked lean... I am sure he puts in 100 mile weeks. I have never run 100m week. I’m lean but he is crazy lean.

I know I can’t match his efforts but honestly maybe running 31 ...10k or sub ...1:10 half is possible. So at 41 years old myself.... his efforts look more like a challenge to myself than a reason to roll over and quit.

Until I dedicate myself to 100+ miles per week and get scary lean I won’t judge. And even then I’m not fast enough to openly critique something I Am not.

I wasn't talking about Castille in this scenario, I was talking generally.

But I have started to see more and more guys who I either competed against in college or who ran in the same region as I went to college who are now running age graded times that, by far, outstrip their college times. We are talking about 14:40s and 15:00+guys now running age graded times in the very low 14:00s.

These guys are lean and jacked and they are running well beyond what you would expect of them based on what they were doing when they were in college, in a setting where training was a high priority, you had access to good facilities, where you had access to a training staff, you had consistent training partners, etc.

Those are the guys that I look at now and get bummed out by, because I honestly do not think that there is any way that they are clean. You can say that these guys were undertrained or didn't apply themselves or didn't eat right, but I can tell you that I was undertrained and drank too much and ate like crap in college, and I have mostly addressed those things, even if I still drink too much and eat lots of bad foods to go along with the increased number of good foods I eat. And do you know what the outcome is? My masters times, when age adjusted, are almost exactly in line with my better college times.

To get so markedly better over time, particularly while leaning out and muscling up a bit, makes me scratch my head.

I didn't run in college so my perspective is probably irrelevant

I've never been that fast and I'll never be that fast. I also know very few people that are that fast so I honestly have no clue other than it's amazing!

I honestly don't know what is actually possible or not possible.

I didn't really run in my 20s or 30s ....so now running in my 40s I don't really have a history to go back and compare. I came from Cycling where there were a few bad apples but mostly really talented really good riders.

I know plenty of guys that were way better than me on the bike that were totally clean so I have to be optimistic that the same exists in running. I'm a reasonable masters runner but I'll never touch the elite masters like Kevin.

I definitely scratch my head sometimes with running and cycling.... but I know for certain that I'm not the top of the human food chain. I was in mid-pack cross country runner in high school so I know there's a zillion people on this planet faster than me. I ran 2:26 this past year at 41 with no pedigree and no drugs so I know that is possible for me and only me.

I'm sure someone out there that's running three hours would look at me and say that ...he has to be on something. That being said all the college kids around me that ran a 2:20 looked at me like a slow fat hobby jogger so perspective is everything.

To circle back ...Kevins times are mind blowing to me regardless of age. I have never ...and never will run those times ...so I don't even have enough perspective how fast that really is. He seems like he works his ass off .......so I have to support that .......and I think this thread should be more about how he trains and what he is doing? He must be doing some pretty hard training to run that fast. I'd love to see that printed.

I can't be a skeptic for something I have never done.... and never will do.

I just don't have any perspective to be doubter other than I would love to be that fast.

I think I'm just jealous personally.

I hear you, but I am not questioning these guys because they are faster than me; I am questioning them because they are relatively faster than their younger selves by a considerable amount, when their younger selves were in a prime position to excel.

Masterblaster13 wrote:

He must be doing some pretty hard training to run that fast. I'd love to see that printed.

I referenced the article earlier, but this discusses his training to some extent. 100-120 mpw. Same types of workouts everyone does (tempos, mile repeats, 200s/400s, etc).

Smoove wrote:

I hear you, but I am not questioning these guys because they are faster than me; I am questioning them because they are relatively faster than their younger selves by a considerable amount, when their younger selves were in a prime position to excel.

Cheaters have little or low conscientiousness. My conscientiousness is really high so achieving a racing goal using illegal or even questionable methods would ring hollow. I would be really worried and ashamed of myself.

Age group dopers/cheaters tarnish everyone. That is what really sucks.

Here I am 61 and wanting/trying to make a big jump in age graded best of 89-90 to 94-95.

I had little training prior to turning 40 . Trained well for a few years , injuries other stuff with a comeback efforts over the last 16 years. But now I have the desire and time to have another go at it. So if I do get this done I will be the only one who knows how clean I am and that sucks.

You should totes go on the juice. You could be the first sub-4 60-year old!

Prediction on his marathon time at CIM?

http://www.usatf.org/Products---Services/Event-Registration-Status.aspx?e=110494

2:16:37

I cannot decide between him (i) going out epically hard and crashing, which he has done at times in the past, and (ii) coming in at just under the B standard qualifier. I don't think that there will be an in-between.

BostonRunCoach wrote:

Prediction on his marathon time at CIM?

http://www.usatf.org/Products---Services/Event-Registration-Status.aspx?e=110494

Leilani Rios!

Damn it would be fun to be a California international! Good luck to all those guys going for it....

I bet it would be a lot of fun at least through the first half then after that it's going to get ugly.

It cracks me up just how clueless you are about the value of an age-graded performance. Do you even know how they come up with those percentages? You’re comparing apples to oranges.