Why did Webb go to Michigan?

true but wrote:

Star wrote:

Michigan had this runner named Nick Willis at around the same time as Webb.

I think he did well.

They had another guy called Nate Brannen. Never ran a step faster over 800m than he did in High school.

Not true. What a ridiculous post. 1) It's not factual and 2) It insinuates Brannen had a poor career.

Brannen ran 1:46.60 in HS. He ran 1:46.00 in the NCAA final as a freshman at NCAAs. He eventually moved up to the 1500 where he made 3 Olympic teams including making the final in 2016. He has a 3:34 pb.

I heard he was really impressed with a couple of the dining halls and wanted to attend football games at the Big House.

And I think the point is that Michigan had a pretty good middle distance program when Webb went there.

At the time, no one questioned Michigan as a choice for Webb.

The only question was whether he should turn pro right out of high school or not.

It looked like he made the wrong decision twice.

He chose college when his value was high coming out of high school and then went pro after a bad year of college and his value was low.

2001 - high school under Raczko - good

2002 - College, Michigan - bad

2003 - pro under Raczko - bad

2004-2007 pro under Raczko - good

2008 - under Raczko - eh

The Salazar for a bit, then something else but never got his mojo back

You can't question his fantastic results under Raczko.

But you can wonder if it would have clicked and done as well or even better sticking with Michigan

Willis stuck with Warhurst the whole way and has two Olympic medals and a 3:29 PR.

Brannen blossomed under Warhurst and we haven't even mentioned Kevin Sullivan's great career under Warhurst.

rojo wrote:

true but wrote:

They had another guy called Nate Brannen. Never ran a step faster over 800m than he did in High school.

Not true. What a ridiculous post. 1) It's not factual and 2) It insinuates Brannen had a poor career.

Brannen ran 1:46.60 in HS. He ran 1:46.00 in the NCAA final as a freshman at NCAAs. He eventually moved up to the 1500 where he made 3 Olympic teams including making the final in 2016. He has a 3:34 pb.

How the heck is that ridiculous(which is a lot coming from you)? It's pretty much bang on.

Brannen would have been better with a faster 800. How is that even a discussion?

It insinuates nothing about having a poor career.

Sullivan could have done better too. Right when he should have made his next step forward in ability he just lost all his momentum and started falling off the back of races and never making up ground after that.

Two big reasons to attend University of Michigan at that time were Kevin Sullivan and Tim Broe; aside from this, there was the up-and-coming crop of Alan Webb, Nate Brannon, and Nick Willis.

The former two were established pro's in their prime as a 3:50 miler/3:31 1500 runner and a 7:39 3k/13:11 5k runner; the latter two were a sub-4:00 high school miler from Canada with 1:46 speed and a promising high school recruit who logged a 4:01. All four of whom were/were to be coached by Warhurst who had a proven record for middle-distance runners.

Below is an interesting, more current read on Tim Broe/Warhurst and the Michigan elite scene. I'd imagine it was a comparable dynamic to the early 2000's when Webb joined. Not to speak ill, but I'd imagine ego had something to do with it. He was the most promising high school talent since Jim Ryan and found himself at UoM with those whose speed and strength rivaled his in Sullivan/Broe, but it was more of a "blue collar" atmosphere and dynamic. If I were 18-19 years old and had the world at my feet, I'd likely go my own way and be open to the option that provided me world-travel, state of the art facilities etc

What strikes me is that difference in how Willis’s and Webb’s career played out. The interview with Willis on here was very insightful and I was surprised at how little track work he has done (something like a track workout every two weeks). I couldn’t believe how a guy could stay near the top for so long while pushing the limits so sparingly (but what do I know). Webb always seemed like the type of guy to do lots of workouts and training partners mentioned how hard he worked. It might have burned him out quickly, as he never came close to his 2007 form ever again. It’s easy to overdo it when you’re feeling good in your prime.

Kevin Sullivan ran 3:36 or better in 14 different years.

That includes running 3:35 or better 12 years in a row with a 3:31.71 PR and a 5th place Olympic finish.

Sure, we all could have done better but that looks like a pretty successful career to me.

Willis has run 3:36 or better 14 years in a row including 3:34 or better the last 7 years, with back-to-back 3:29 years and the Olympic medals.

Even Nate Brannen ran 3:36 or better in 9 different years.

That's the program Webb was joining.

By contrast, Webb ran 3:36 or better in 5 different years in his career with a stretch of 4 years in a row.

Star wrote:

Kevin Sullivan ran 3:36 or better in 14 different years.

That includes running 3:35 or better 12 years in a row with a 3:31.71 PR and a 5th place Olympic finish.

Sure, we all could have done better but that looks like a pretty successful career to me.

Willis has run 3:36 or better 14 years in a row including 3:34 or better the last 7 years, with back-to-back 3:29 years and the Olympic medals.

Even Nate Brannen ran 3:36 or better in 9 different years.

That's the program Webb was joining.

By contrast, Webb ran 3:36 or better in 5 different years in his career with a stretch of 4 years in a row.

All of that hadn't happened when Webb went there. Webb had the thought that he could win. Those other guys have the more realistic pick up the scraps mindset.

milermb wrote:

Good question! Reading that book about Webb's year at Michigan it is crystal clear that he was simply not suited to Warhurst's training and general approach to running. So very different to what he was used to. Surely someone in Webb's position would ask a lot of questions about the sort of training he would be expected to do before he agrees to attend a University?

No criticism of Warhurst or Webb intended here - some athletes are simply not suited to some coaches/methods.

He was 18. You think you are invincible and can adapt to any situation. I'm sure he would actually improve with a more seasoned coach (regardless of the system). How would he know he was not cut out for it. He'd only run 1 system. And only for a few years.

As to the original question: It's moot, Michigan did not ruin. Webb ruined Webb. He trained too hard and thought too much, and never adapted to racing rather than time trialling. He was just too good in HS to ever learn how to race. All his best races were time trial like efforts (rabbits, not a lot of positioning, not a lot tactics at all, just go fast and hold on tight). Racing is a totally different game (something most lets runners don't seem to get). And 'm not just talking slow tactical races. You can also have fast tactical races.

Hindsighter wrote:

All of that hadn't happened when Webb went there. Webb had the thought that he could win. Those other guys have the more realistic pick up the scraps mindset.

All of Kevin's Sullivan's peak success happened before Webb got there.

And he was still consistently world class when Webb was there and after.

And the other two are the same age as Webb.

I don't understand your "mindset" point.

I'm making the consistency point.

I do agree that Webb wanted to be the best he could be and was willing to take risks to do that.

He pushed his training. He made wild moves in races.

We loved that about him.

I am not judging his decisions. And I am not saying that he should have stayed at Michigan.

I am just answering the thread question of why did he go to Michigan. And that answer is there was success there.

He may have never run that 3:46 mile if he stayed. Who knows.

Read the book "Sub-4" by Chris Lear. It has everything you're looking for in it.

“If it excites you and scares you at the same time you should probably do it.”

“Never underestimate the heart of a champion.”

“Life will only change when you become more committed to your dreams than your comfort zone.”

“Life what is happening not what you thought would happen.”

Nice pic from George Aitkin's collection.

https://www.facebook.com/aitkinphotos/photos/a.344344329099280.1073741827.344338315766548/777896355744073/?type=3&theater

eheheeheh wrote:

Nice pic from George Aitkin's collection.

Webb and Brannen are both wearing those silly rope-necklaces in that pic - really brings me back to the late 90s/early 2000s!

I recall looking at a running magazine in 1988 and seeing one of the top US guys wearing a puka shell necklace in a race. That's when I knew us runners were hopeless nerds.

There was an 800 guy from Tennessee who wore like 6 of those necklaces at once.

hart crane wrote:

There was an 800 guy from Tennessee who wore like 6 of those necklaces at once.

Marc Sylvester. Sheesh.

Doh etosh wrote:

I recall looking at a running magazine in 1988 and seeing one of the top US guys wearing a puka shell necklace in a race. That's when I knew us runners were hopeless nerds.