What is wrong with American male marathoners? Or, how long will 2:12 be impressive?

Solid troll. Easy one though: we (Americans) are way too soft. Starbucks, cell phones, fast food, cushy office jobs with sensitivity training every other day. Helicopter parents for our poor "bullied" kids. Political correctness. Stupid a$$ facebook. An out of touch media that would rather talk about under-educated, overpaid athletes kneeling than real life.

You and me and just about all of us on these boards live a charmed life and are truly blessed, but there is a price to pay when your competitor is as good or better than you and had to earn it every step, every day and the job boils down to how much you are willing to bleed. Not enough. You lose.

And btw: 2:12 has always been and will be off the charts good and is much more than "impressive."

This is a great post. It may only contribute ever so slightly to the why, but it's an excellent observation, nonetheless.

Five is the magic number wrote:

3 and 5 are the magic numbers here.

5 seems to be the magic number to Americans.

Americans are all training to hold 5 minute miles for as long as possible.

5 minutes per mile equates to 2:11.

Hence they all end up in the 2:10-2:12 range.

(Depending on either surging or fading in the last miles).

Most of the rest of the world is training to do 3 minutes per kilometer.

3 minutes per kilometer equates to 2:07.

And 3 minutes per kilometer prefigures results in the 2:06-2:08.

This is a great observation. Our failure to adopt the metric systems bites us again.

To this, though, I'd add that our best runners should consider running where the rest of the world's best runners run. We all know the five or so races that are going to go in 2:05 and better every single time, and not a single one is in the US. Spare me the outlier performances. Good on the Arizona group for going to Frankfurt. What about the rest of you? Who will be at London in the spring?

It's just odd to me that compared to the past, nobody currently races nearly as much as those faster US runners did. Then, the one or two times a year they're prepared to race, they don't go somewhere that is going to be fast!

wouldnt griffiths use miles

What's wrong with African basketball players. How long will shady fade away jumpers and poor ball handling skills be impressive?

A couple of reasons:

1. When you have to run over a 10K a day your whole life for transportation, when you start training for the marathon your body is well adapted to running long distance. There was an American athlete, I think it was Bob Kennedy who said he once had some grade school kids run along side of him for at least a mile in a uniform and books in there hands on one of his training runs. Obviously being born and raised at altitude and on a low crab diet helps as well.

2. People are good at what they covet. In the U.S., there are millions of kids on the basketball court thinking they are going to be the next Stephen Curry or in the pool looking to be the next Phelps. East Africa has millions of kids running long distance thinking they are going to be the next Bekele. East Africa and even Japan to a lesser extent has athletes starting marathon training in their late teens, while in the U.S. , it their late 20s. Your average NCAA XC all-American can do a 20 mile run at a 2:15 marathon pace. America could produce (50) 2:15 marathoners overnight if their focus was not the track. Split those 50 (50) 2:15 marathoners into a couple training groups and within a few years, you will have a dozen 2:12 types and a handful of sub-2:10 types. With no NCAA system, that kind of what you have in East Africa.

3. There are a lot of sub-2:05 East African performances over the last decade that don't add up. I have been hearing for years that EPO was easy to get your hands on within some of the pro training groups. I coached a young Kenyan athlete in the late 90s, who was from a rural area, but he knew what EPO was and how to get it. I can't say EPO usage is rampant in East Africa, but I suspect it's more pervasive than what most of us think.

yaaas wrote:

why doesn't Ritz's 2:07:4x show up in that list? i see other chicago marathon times in there... did the course change and become non-eligible?

The list is from April 2011.

TrackCoach wrote:

Obviously being born and raised at altitude and on a low crab diet helps as well.

Mainly good points. But I definitely need to hear more about this low-crab diet, sounds important.

Sarah in accounting wrote:

In the 80's I got my ass jacked as a sub 15 5k guy.

What exactly is "getting your ass jacked"?

One could ask the same question for every event, 800m and longer. At the end of 1989 or 1990, USA and Kenya both had app. a half a dozen men with sub-1:44 800m PB. According to IAAF there are 132 sub-1:44 800m men today. I am not in the mood to count how many from USA versus how many from Kenya. I am certain if we count Gregory Konchellah and Wilson Kipketer as Kenyans, I am sure Kenya has at least twice as many sub-1:44 800m runners than USA. The Olympics from 1896 to roughly 1956 excluded nations. Those from excluded nations have improved more and will improve more than citizens from Europe, USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

Come on.

1-Kenyans are all super lean to begin with. They don't have to KFC and Dominos at every corner to tempt them.

2-They're gifted.

3-They run to survive, to escape poverty not for "a respectable time". They always run to place and earn money. And they know (and they're coaches know) what that time must be.

They don't enter races to be the "top Kenyan".

47yroldrunna wrote:

Come on.

1-Kenyans are all super lean to begin with. They don't have to KFC and Dominos at every corner to tempt them.

2-They're gifted.

3-They run to survive, to escape poverty not for "a respectable time". They always run to place and earn money. And they know (and they're coaches know) what that time must be.

They don't enter races to be the "top Kenyan".

When I brought in 800m to demonstrate this is not a Marathon circumstance, this is every event 800m to Marathon. Do we have to have a 1500m conversation next?

Gifted? I used an 800m argument. I know physiologists David Martin, PhD. and Owen Anderson, PhD. have stated the greatest predictor of 800m success is 400m PB. The ideal 400m range for 800m runners is 44.5 to 47.5. USA has more men in that 400m range than any nation on earth. USA athletes are gifted.

Did you change your name in the middle of this thread? If so, why?

200KM week versus 100 miles

Seriously no American male wants to be skinny, we all wanna look like Arnold the terminator. Don't believe me, check the raise of Arnold and the decline of fast US times. And what is the first thing Hall did after stopping marathon, he put on alot of muscle mass. Maybe something he wanted to do for a long time....

Because it had been years since his last marathon until he popped that 3rd at NYC last year. It’s easy to be overlooked when you aren’t competing on the reg.

We're talking the MARATHON. And east africans are far more gifted at that distance. Hello?

Changed my name? Umm no.

In all seriousness, if you're running a marathon in continental Europe there are no mile markers, only KM splits. So they must have been thinking about their marathon pace primarily in KMs or 5Ks in preparation.

WhereAreThey wrote:

Why does it seem like a superhuman feat for an American man to break 2:10 in the marathon?

So many African runners do it every year. Over 150 Japanese men have done it. But in all of recorded history, less than 50 American (natural born or otherwise) men have broken 2:10. What is this magical barrier? Does no one know how to coach the marathon in the US? Are American marathoners the cleanest group of athletes in all sport?

Some sheep farmer from Wales just ran 2:09. Well done to him but why can these super elite, super funded like BTC produce better marathoners? What is 2:12?

There's Ethiopia, Kenya, and Japan, where 2:12 isn't impressive. You could take "American" out of your question and replace it with "European," "Australian," "Mexican," "Chinese," almost any nationality. Americans had lots more sub 2:12 and 2:20 guys in the 70s and 80s when our runners were more focused on marathons and more of us ran them and ran them more frequently. Our best guys nearly all ran marathons seriously. Now they stay on the track and maybe run it as a back up event for an Olympics or when they're older and "done" with track.

Most of the American 45x 400m sprinters are fast-twitch pure sprinters in that they can also run a sub-21 in the 200 for example. 400m pure sprinter types have a poorly developed aerobic systems and quickly breakdown when they have to run any distance that engages their aerobic system. This does not say they can't become 800m runners but it their natural ability. My high school had few sprinters who were pretty decent XC runners because they worked at it. However, I have also known world class 400m sprinters who hate jogging more than a mile.

The African half milers tend to also have an aerobic base from running as a form of transportation.