Agree with all of you guys... course sucks! If you stand at the top of the grandstands with binoculars that's probably the best spot... lol it's sad especially with the emerging talent in Ohio the last few years, not that it hasn't always been really good, but things seem to be getting better...
Luv2Run wrote:
A kid can get hurt on any course.
I believe that schools bid to host the meet. From there I am not sure about the selection process. Aren't HS XC coaches involved in the selection process?
The CO State XC course is narrow along it's entire length, and there is a significant bottleneck turn less than 400m from the start. I agree the surface is fine.
Don't get me wrong, the CO course sounds like a huge improvement over what I heard the previous version was (my kid wasn't in the program back then), but I still don't think that *venue* should be the final resting place of a Championship meet.
I don't know for sure but it sounded to me like coaches are not at all involved in the selection process. Sounds like that's the main frustration of my kid's coach. Its apparently a feeling felt by a lot of coaches in CO: immense frustration with CHSAA.
Anyone know why they stopped using the golf course on Fountain Creek in South Springs and instead opted for the Bear Creek area? The golf course was a much better, faster, more crowd friendly venue.
joedirt wrote:
Anyone know why they stopped using the golf course on Fountain Creek in South Springs and instead opted for the Bear Creek area? The golf course was a much better, faster, more crowd friendly venue.
that course doesnt even exist in the same form anymore. That area got bulldozed and transformed a lot in the past decade
Florida
1. Site selection via bid process.
2. Current site is Apalachee Regional Park in Tallahassee. The Florida State home course. Has hosted ACC championships, NCAA South Region, and in 2021 (?) the NCAA Championships.
3. Perfectly manicured.
4. Blazing fast (depending on temp, of course).
5. Kids love it.
7. A modest hill that is run twice.
8. Limited visibility, but race can be followed on a Jumbotron, with a superb announcer.
So the deal is this:
Every two years a bid is put in to host the meet. The last cycle there were some pretty good alternatives. Longmont had a pretty good bid if I remember correctly. I believe the lack of nearby hotels to accommodate traveling athletes was what did them in.
Co Springs won simply because it is more central, they have the hotels, they can hold the parking (though it is annoying at times), and they put in the effort to have a quality bid.
Pueblo would be nice but would be too far for Denver (larger population of athletes) and foco/Boul area schools. Would make a long travel day or crowded hotels.
Also take in that CO was not designed for the population it has. Travel needs to be minimized as best as possible.
As far as the course itself I find nothing really wrong with it. It is challenging but it is challenging for everyone. If NXRSW was the next week I would be a little concerned but there is plenty of time to recover. Dekoavand is far more treacherous with the water crossings. Taking out big Willis made it a faster course. The water crossing at the end is much wider and safer.
corunnerguy wrote:
So the deal is this:
Every two years a bid is put in to host the meet. The last cycle there were some pretty good alternatives. Longmont had a pretty good bid if I remember correctly. I believe the lack of nearby hotels to accommodate traveling athletes was what did them in.
Co Springs won simply because it is more central, they have the hotels, they can hold the parking (though it is annoying at times), and they put in the effort to have a quality bid.
Pueblo would be nice but would be too far for Denver (larger population of athletes) and foco/Boul area schools. Would make a long travel day or crowded hotels.
Also take in that CO was not designed for the population it has. Travel needs to be minimized as best as possible.
As far as the course itself I find nothing really wrong with it. It is challenging but it is challenging for everyone. If NXRSW was the next week I would be a little concerned but there is plenty of time to recover. Dekoavand is far more treacherous with the water crossings. Taking out big Willis made it a faster course. The water crossing at the end is much wider and safer.
All valid and accurate points but in the end are just points that rationalize a state course that simply plain sucks.
-Ghetto location.Could they find a worse armpit of the city ?
-Parking, access, egress all suck. (better than used to be but still BAD)
-Course:
Not compliant xc starting dimensions, off camber, left side constriction, obstacle @ 50 metres for right third of starting line. Right side blows!
Asphalt.
The athletes barn was cute to run through but now gone. Lolipopping the dirt (overlooking the factory) and skirting the barn before sealing down the contrived "path" the toilets was especially nice this year!
Spectating on this course involves a 5 k race pace effort if you'd like to view several spots.
Spectatators poaching Bear Creek at illegal crossings occurs about 1000 times per race.
(Drone footage of this would be hilarious.LOTS of spills in the creek!)
If you want to watch the finish, you must be in rodeo stands well before finish and you won't see race unfold. (There is a play by play announcer, but don't plan on factual play by play or splits or athlete or grade)
If CHSAA continues with this abomination pretending to be a worthy venue for CO XC, then they should go back to the Big Willis course. If it's going to be a shitty venue, they might as well return it to epic tough course.
so what course in CO would you suggest? Pretty much any poses problems.
You people do realize this is cross country, not track, right?
Easily fixable....... wrote:
OhioBuff wrote:
Personally, I enjoy the drag strip. It's a good course from a spectators perspective and I've never felt like it was more challenging than some of the other courses in Ohio.
You have to be joking, right? Let me list the problems.
1. The start is so far away from the stands, you can't hear the gun go off and don't know when the race started.
2. If you watch the start, you now have to run 3/8ths of a mile to see them at the beginning of the dragstrip.
3. When the runners get there, they are still bunched up and have to make a 180 turn with some runners tripping over the padding they put on the concrete dragstrip divider.
4. The mile mark is behind the fence behind the opposing grandstand. You have to run another 1/4 mile and then watch them run the back loop. The fans in the regular stands can't see that.
5. Once they complete this and head for the 2 mile mark, EVERYBODY would need binoculars to see them because they don't allow anybody in that area.
6. If you are following the race, you now have to run 5/8ths of a mile back to where you started to see the runners coming out of the woods
7. COMING OUT OF THE FREAKING WOODS? Why would ANY meet run runners through the woods at a critical time and NOT ALLOW ANY FANS to be able to see them?
8. When the runners are running the last half mile, no fans are allowed within 50 yards of them. You now have to sprint toward the grandstand to see the finish. If you were sitting in the stands, you dont see the runners for the last mile until the sprint beside the dragstrip.
What pi55es me off is how easy this would be to fix so they had a much more fan friendly course and the fans (especially the kids) could be closer to the runners cheering for them instead of having to yell a football field away.
I like the start. 400m gives the runners a chance to space out and find a position. The drag strip is an amazing view when you're running it, there's really nothing like it. The back section is a little boring, I'll accept that. After that, the woods is nice because otherwise it doesn't feel like a real cross country course, at least to me. I've never had a problem with this course as a spectator either. It's close enough together that you can see the runners multiple times.
not flagpole wrote:
Ohio has there meet on an abomination of a course. Ran down NHRA drag strip, where everything is roped of and a mile of going back and forth on itself.
ohio guy here. nothing like running a state meet at a dragstrip. Its embarrasing. OHSAA is a joke.
I've not seen the Ohio course in person, but it doesn't appear any less appropriate than a modern Worlds course. And if I compare it to the infamous Rim Rock course in Kansas, for example, it doesn't have hundreds of spectators either getting injured trying to find their way to viewing spots IN THE WOODS, then having them cross the course multiple times and get in the runners' ways, either. Ohio doesn't seem so bad.
well the course at detweiler has changed a few times over the years, but other than that you make a decent point. Definitely a great course for spectators and everyone to run on.
The CO course isn't dangerous. Give me a break. If multiple Olympians can regularly train in Bear Creek park sorry it's not good enough for your son. That Cranny Rainsberger finish that was seen on the internet was classic and nobody cared that the finish was at Penrose. Chelimo trained there regularly. Sorry if its good enough for Olympic medalists it's good enough for your son. It starts near some stables but the majority of the race is in the park. Plus numerous World cross country champs have been held at horse facilities.
Sounds like most all of the complaints about the CO course are coming from spectators/coaches.
Not many, if any, complaints from runners themselves.
I have run the course and believe it is an ok course for the Colorado State xc meet. Thankfully it does not have artificially propagated golf course type grass, which is not natural in CO and wastes water . It has gravel, some rocks, hills, moderate elevation, stream crossing, challenge and is not that narrow. Every runner has to run the very same course. And there were opportunities to race it before the event.
Sounds like most of the complaints are not really about the course, but about the venue.
While trying to set up a spectator friendly course is something to consider in site selection, there are many many other things to consider when selecting the course/venue for a state xc meet.
My suggestion is that if you feel so strongly about it get with others to find what you believe is a better course/venue and submit a bid for future years
-Ghetto location.Could they find a worse armpit of the city ?
This is just beyond a stupid comment. Its the number one school district. Home to the longest rated 5 star 5 diamond hotel.
The Broadmoor Skyway area is probably the most desirable in the CIty. Judy Bell Pres of US Golf wanted to take part of th course and make it into a golf course to go with the other Broadmoor golf courses that have hosted multiple US opens.
Someone said the parking was inadequate. Good enough for the President to use and he has the biggest crowds EVER.
O I H O wrote:
Supertramp, where would you move it to in Ohio? Agree that spectating at the drag strip is near impossible---AFAIK, the reasons it's held at the drag strip are: 1. enough parking 2. it's fenced off so the state can charge spectators to get in 3. room to make a 3.1 course (regardless of whether it's any good or not). I'd be interested in others' opinions of why it ended up there after the horse track course was put to an end AND where in Ohio would you move it to now?
It's been a long time since I have ran CC in Ohio, so not a lot of Columbus area courses come to mind. I remember having a 3rd party conversation about somebody in the Columbus area wanting to showcase a course that sounded like it had real potential, but I don't remember any details.
Cedarville, Mason, Boardman and Tiffin put on great meets, but none are very central, although Cedarville's not bad. I've personally always been a fan of the venue at Troy where they host the regional (and I've always thought Troy was too far north for that region, venue should be south of Dayton) but I know that's a minority opinion. The Midwest Meet of Champions is a very large meet on a fast course and in the Columbus area (at Hilliard I believe?) that might be able to host it.
Somebody already mentioned it, but taking it back to Scioto Down would be great. It has its flaws for sure but most everyone seemed to be a big fan of that venue. However, something about them introducing slot machines led to the OHSAA not being able to host the meet there? At least that was the rumor I heard. I'd hope they'd be willing to work around that somehow,
I agree that the drag strip makes sense on paper; its ability to facilitate all the people is a big advantage. However, I believe there has to be other venues in the area that can do the same thing and provide a course that is more spectator and competition friendly.
(apologies to all the people the Colorado people for hijacking your thread)
MoreBetterer wrote:
corunnerguy wrote:
So the deal is this:
Every two years a bid is put in to host the meet. The last cycle there were some pretty good alternatives. Longmont had a pretty good bid if I remember correctly. I believe the lack of nearby hotels to accommodate traveling athletes was what did them in.
Co Springs won simply because it is more central, they have the hotels, they can hold the parking (though it is annoying at times), and they put in the effort to have a quality bid.
Pueblo would be nice but would be too far for Denver (larger population of athletes) and foco/Boul area schools. Would make a long travel day or crowded hotels.
Also take in that CO was not designed for the population it has. Travel needs to be minimized as best as possible.
As far as the course itself I find nothing really wrong with it. It is challenging but it is challenging for everyone. If NXRSW was the next week I would be a little concerned but there is plenty of time to recover. Dekoavand is far more treacherous with the water crossings. Taking out big Willis made it a faster course. The water crossing at the end is much wider and safer.
All valid and accurate points but in the end are just points that rationalize a state course that simply plain sucks.
-Ghetto location.Could they find a worse armpit of the city ?
-Parking, access, egress all suck. (better than used to be but still BAD)
-Course:
Not compliant xc starting dimensions, off camber, left side constriction, obstacle @ 50 metres for right third of starting line. Right side blows!
Asphalt.
The athletes barn was cute to run through but now gone. Lolipopping the dirt (overlooking the factory) and skirting the barn before sealing down the contrived "path" the toilets was especially nice this year!
Spectating on this course involves a 5 k race pace effort if you'd like to view several spots.
Spectatators poaching Bear Creek at illegal crossings occurs about 1000 times per race.
(Drone footage of this would be hilarious.LOTS of spills in the creek!)
If you want to watch the finish, you must be in rodeo stands well before finish and you won't see race unfold. (There is a play by play announcer, but don't plan on factual play by play or splits or athlete or grade)
If CHSAA continues with this abomination pretending to be a worthy venue for CO XC, then they should go back to the Big Willis course. If it's going to be a shitty venue, they might as well return it to epic tough course.
+1
bcp wrote:
The CO course isn't dangerous. Give me a break. If multiple Olympians can regularly train in Bear Creek park sorry it's not good enough for your son.
Do those Olympians train there with 150 of their closest training buddies, all running 5min pace in a pack with hundreds of oblivious spectators watching from just off the trail?
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