Now it gets interesting, Zane Robertson's ex-girlfriend Betty Desalegn (Jama Aden athlete) is busted for Biological Passport

No I certainly dont think everything is "rainbows and Marshmallows" I`m as aware as the next person that professional sport is rife with cheats. My objection is to the knee jerk reaction that any consistent performance or excellence "must" be doping related.

I am someone who tries to look deeper into athletes performances as to possible supporting reasons why they are/maybe genuine. Even if I am suspicious I dont automatically condemn them on the evidence of social media beat ups or media "revelation"

I dont understand people who take the stance that so and so must be doping simply because they win well or have a history of rubbing shoulders with shady coaches/managers etc.

At the end of the day, very few posters on these forums have met the best athletes or have any insight into their lives both professional or personal. - and yet discussions here condemn with the fairness of the spanish inquisition.

C'mon man, in a sport rife of doping how can anyone be certain what is clean or doped...the line has been blurred and it's indistinguishable because of the prevelannce of doping. And how about athletes coached by (i.e., "rubbing shoulders" with) Jama Aden, where a cache of PEDs were found at his training camp in Spain last year. Just a coincidence? Nothing to see there? Lol. And now a survey that was being covered up:

This from the report ?

"The research, based on anonymous surveys carried out at two elite athletics competitions in 2011, found that up to 57% of competitors admitted doping in the previous 12 months, a figure far surpassing the 1-2% identified by blood and urine tests carried out by the World Anti-Doping Agency (Wada), and higher even than the 14% prevalence estimated from the athlete biological passport."

"57%!" That's almost 6 out of 10 athletes. Lol...rainbows & marshmallows.

When I "pay attention" I find: - You have plainly altered what it was that the Spanish police found - The linked article says 3 million doses of 120 "substances", not 120 "PEDs" as you claimed - ... including steroids (WOW!), hormones (WOW!), and active (Huh?) and inert (Oooh INERT!!!) ingredients - PEDs is, in any case, is always a vague and misleading term, as 1) many PEDs are not banned, and 2) it is not always known if a banned substance is performance enhancing - Your "thinking" they are not going to weekend warriors and gym rats doesn't mean they aren't - I called this "speculation" and not "common sense" and "logic" - Supplements to weekend warriors and gym rats are a big business - Supplements are oftened tainted with banned substances Then I wonder, knowing there is plenty of info out there, about what info is missing: - how many of these 3,000,000 doses are WADA banned substances? - how many are destined for sports? - how many of those are destined for Olympic sports, covered by WADA? - how many of those are ending up in track and field? - which events are they ending up in? - which of those events are they impacting performance? - by how much? I don't doubt that doping is a big business, fueled by the very same widespread mythology you've fallen for, or are pushing, and by the yellow journalism (another business on its own) from "investigative reports" with dramatic re-enactments showing how easy something "could be", without showing what was actually done by the athletes being smeared. As we have seen from recent Russian events, there are events where drugs can make an impact, e.g. women in strength and middle distance, and men in race walking. And there is a lot of info missing. Common sense and logic require understanding the full context, and not filling in the missing pieces with your own pre-formed conclusions, and calling that common sense and logic.

Don't get fooled wrote:

Common sense & logic has been replaced with corruption & unethics! Doping is alive & well: Microdosing EPO, blood doping, testesterone gels, GHRP-2...all used to fly under the radar of the ABP. And lets not forgot the TUE drugs that are used for performance enhancing by the rising number of the chronically "sick" athletes throughout the world. Lol.

Pay attention rekrunner...common sense stuff here: Where there's money in sport you can be assured there's doping..."no surprises there." ? And the PEDs are a flowing: just last May the Spanish authorities arrested 14 & confiscated *3 MILLION* doses of 120 different types of PEDs ?. I don't think they were going all to the weekend warriors and run-of-the-mill gym rats either. Lol.

Barrel of Laughs wrote:

"57%!" That's almost 6 out of 10 athletes. Lol...rainbows & marshmallows.

+1

And, as the authors explained at length in the main text, a number that is most likely underestimated!

And the patriotic BBC? Makes "more than 30%" at Daegu and "45%" at PAG out of that, in yet another attempt to protect their heroes Coe and Radcliffe.

However, Hill Run is correct in claiming that doping can't be the reason for a dominant performance, because the competition is doped too. Any dominant performance must thusly be a combination of super talent, great training, bold and/or protected doping (e.g., the 14% that dare to violate the ABP), and high response to PEDs.

We know there was a raid that found EPO at a training camp. We know Aden organized the training camp. We don't know who organized the EPO.

René Magritte wrote:

Ssssh! Rekrunner will be on here soon to deny any raid in Spain and any athlete involved was only using vitamins. In fact no one will derive any benefit from the drugs found.

Sure, many PEDs/PESs are not banned, but the ones that are most performance enhancing are (e.g., O2-vector doping, androgens, GH, amphetamines). O2-vector is most effective for endurance sports & is synergistically used with androgens and/or GH (Someone posted an interesting study on an AAS that potentiates EPO).

Btw, why do you keep thinking that O2-vector use has to result in a male user running sub-3:29, sub-13:00, sub-27:00, and so on? ? It's not so much the PB, but the percentage gain in improvement from the runner's baseline times when the program was initiated.

...and men's mid-d & distance running (e.g., Ramzi, Mourhit, Garcia, Kaouch, Ekupe, Boulami, etc., etc., etc., etc.)

High-Octane Dopers wrote:

...and men's mid-d & distance running (e.g., Ramzi, Mourhit, Garcia, Kaouch, Ekupe, Boulami, etc., etc., etc., etc.)

... and men's sprinting (e.g., Blake, Powell, Gay, Gatlin) and women's marathon (Shobukhova, Jeptoo, Sumgong). And those are just some proven drug cheat cases of the last ten years.

So the benefits span from men's sprinting to men's 50 km walking, and from women's sprinting to women's marathon. That literally includes everything (as the marathon is the ladies' longest Olympic event). I am not surprised.

casual obsever wrote:

High-Octane Dopers wrote:

...and men's mid-d & distance running (e.g., Ramzi, Mourhit, Garcia, Kaouch, Ekupe, Boulami, etc., etc., etc., etc.)

... and men's sprinting (e.g., Blake, Powell, Gay, Gatlin) and women's marathon (Shobukhova, Jeptoo, Sumgong). And those are just some proven drug cheat cases of the last ten years.

So the benefits span from men's sprinting to men's 50 km walking, and from women's sprinting to women's marathon. That literally includes everything (as the marathon is the ladies' longest Olympic event). I am not surprised.

No, no, Casual. What are you talking about? The sport is 110% clean. Nobody ever cheats, and any athlete with impure thoughts immediately attends confession seeking penitence.

Ted E Beer wrote:

No, no, Casual. What are you talking about? The sport is 110% clean. Nobody ever cheats, and any athlete with impure thoughts immediately attends confession seeking penitence.

He was sarcastic! Over 99% never tested positive, and those few positive tests are either false alarm, or caused by kissing or beef or supplements or rain (innocent athletes running through EPO containing puddles).

Lord Coe and Sir Reedie would not allow any doping to take place. So yes, 110% clean.

SmartRunnr wrote:

Ted E Beer wrote:

No, no, Casual. What are you talking about? The sport is 110% clean. Nobody ever cheats, and any athlete with impure thoughts immediately attends confession seeking penitence.

He was sarcastic!

So was I.

rekrunner wrote:

We know there was a raid that found EPO at a training camp. We know Aden organized the training camp. We don't know who organized the EPO.

0/10

Ted E Beer wrote:

SmartRunnr wrote:

He was sarcastic!

So was I.

Hi rekrunner!

Troll detectoror wrote:

Ted E Beer wrote:

So was I.

Hi rekrunner!

You guys are just so immature.

Gary Rekrunnner wrote:

You guys are just so immature.

It's those darn college kids! They invariably ruin a good thread every time. ?

[quote]rekrunner wrote:

When I "pay attention" I find:

- You have plainly altered what it was that the Spanish police found

- The linked article says 3 million doses of 120 "substances", not 120 "PEDs" as you claimed

- ... including steroids (WOW!), hormones (WOW!), and active (Huh?) and inert (Oooh INERT!!!) ingredients

- PEDs is, in any case, is always a vague and misleading term, as 1) many PEDs are not banned, and 2) it is not always known if a banned substance is performance enhancing

- Your "thinking" they are not going to weekend warriors and gym rats doesn't mean they aren't

- I called this "speculation" and not "common sense" and "logic"

- Supplements to weekend warriors and gym rats are a big business

- Supplements are oftened tainted with banned substances

Then I wonder, knowing there is plenty of info out there, about what info is missing:

- how many of these 3,000,000 doses are WADA banned substances?

- how many are destined for sports?

- how many of those are destined for Olympic sports, covered by WADA?

- how many of those are ending up in track and field?

- which events are they ending up in?

- which of those events are they impacting performance?

- by how much?

I don't doubt that doping is a big business, fueled by the very same widespread mythology you've fallen for, or are pushing, and by the yellow journalism (another business on its own) from "investigative reports" with dramatic re-enactments showing how easy something "could be", without showing what was actually done by the athletes being smeared.

As we have seen from recent Russian events, there are events where drugs can make an impact, e.g. women in strength and middle distance, and men in race walking.

And there is a lot of info missing.

Common sense and logic require understanding the full context, and not filling in the missing pieces with your own pre-formed conclusions, and calling that common sense and logic.

3 million is a lot. I would venture to suggest that some of the 120 substances are ingredients to enhance absorption. I would guess that they were in the business of creating their own designer hormonal cocktails (which is also stating the obvious). But interestingly most of the packages in the photo look like they are generic androgel packets or other hormonal drugs (I could be wrong). There also looks like a generic brand of testosterone, the little green bottles/ampules. Everything else is a guess. It is obviously part of the wider black market,

You are correct. 3 million is a lot. And "everything else is a guess" also hits the spot. No doubt that doping and supplements is a big business, for professional athletes, amateur athletes, and gym rats alike -- made bigger by surrounding it with mythology making doping and supplements seem more important than it is, by venturing to guess. Phrases like "I would venture" and "I would guess" are precisely what I mean when I say a "lot of info is missing", and we need to fill in the gaps with biased speculations, assumptions, and pre-formed conclusions. Much of what we believe is based on a few (sometimes cherry-picked) facts, and "Everything else is a guess." The outcome depends, not on the facts, but on "everything else". I would venture to suggest, and guess, that supplements are often tainted with testosterone and other hormones as an active ingredient, to give a desired effect, like more muscle mass for body-builders, while advertising it as some kind of all natural, herbal, homeopathic, ancient Chinese secret. I note here that the photo is not of 3 million doses.

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

3 million is a lot. I would venture to suggest that some of the 120 substances are ingredients to enhance absorption. I would guess that they were in the business of creating their own designer hormonal cocktails (which is also stating the obvious). But interestingly most of the packages in the photo look like they are generic androgel packets or other hormonal drugs (I could be wrong). There also looks like a generic brand of testosterone, the little green bottles/ampules. Everything else is a guess. It is obviously part of the wider black market,

I think we have to divide athletes in two big categories : who looks mainly for money, and not only accepts, but searches, every way for reaching top results (for producing more money), and who wants to test himself, understanding till where can arrive with his own forces and qualities.

In spite of what the most of part of people can suppose, there are many (if not the most part) of top runners who belong to the second category, and who are able to stay at the top (also achieving some WR) without using any type of external aid (and I don't speak of doping only, but of legal supplements too).

We have in every sport some lack of specific education about the effects of different types of doping.

We need to think of severa points :

a) The business of Pharma Companies is the third in the World, and includes not only real medicines for sick people, but also every kind of supplement, because the global market pushes in this direction

b) We live in a "pharmacological society". In every TV (and in every Country), on every newspaper (and in every Country), in common discussions (and in every Country), normal people look for something helping their health, or able to produce a "magic" improvement of their personal qualities, under physical and mental point of view.

c) Underlining the effects of some substance on specific performances, produces the result to increase the market of the same substance, since the big income for the pharma Companies is in the market for amateurs and normal people, not with top athletes representing a very little percentage, but considered TESTIMONIAL of the effects on the performances.

d) On the other side, antidoping is now a flag for all the Olympic Sport. While the economical sources for the "poor" sports (athletics, swimming, wrestling, lifting, etc...), normally depending on the Investments of national Governments, or by the support of private sponsors (Banks, TV...), during the last 10 years, face a great cut year after year, the Antidoping continues to ask more money, moving the focus of sport from the ACTIVITY (that is something positive for every culture) to the CONTROL.

I read some time ago one post (maybe your, I don't remember) where the poster said the only way for cleaning the sport is to go back to full amateurialism, cancelling all prizes and advantages for top results.

I disagree : with the current culture, people takes some doping also for beating another athlete (maybe working in the same office), and the final goal is not money, but the satisfaction to be better than somebody else (in Italy, 99.50% of people using doping are not athletes, but are in the gyms for private activity).

It's clear that the only solution is a very deep EDUCATIVE ROAD, and at the base of everything there are two different goals :

a) To teach everybody that the higher satisfaction in any sport is TO IMPROVE YOURSELF, and if you take some external substance for helping yourself, but you have clear that goal, YOU GO TO CHEAT YOURSELF.

b) To make LESS IMPORTANT (looking at the final results) the advantages of doping, because, if we go to exaggerate the effects on the performances, WE BECOME THE BEST TESTIMONIAL FOR DOPING.

c) To reduce the list of substances able to give real advantages, and to create a difference in the period of ban depending on the substance, introducing the concept of DOSAGE and QUANTITY, too. At the moment, the list of substances is so long, including also something NEVER really tested, that people without a pool of specialists working with them are confused, and many positive tests are casual (especially when we find little percentage of steroids, present in the most part of medicines made in Asia, mostly in India, Vietnam and Korea).

I don't think that I would have advocated amateurism Renato, but I'll have to check. Interesting, thoughts, are western Pharma companies flooding Africa with drugs that they don't need?

I am clear about the things that I want:

➡ doping in major sport needs to be treated as a fraud, because "we the sport" are being defrauded, Marion Jones and Lance Armstrong were fraudsters. Look back twenty years Morocco had an army of fast distance runners from 800m to the marathon, now none??? Just scandalous.

➡ new athletes need to join some sort of ABP or testing program maybe a year before being eligible for major champs (the West also needs to monitor this with their in athletes).

➡more transparency about t/e ratios and off-scores, maybe public disclosure for naming and shaming will be the best way to clean things up. Good journalism in real time may have asked Paula about her unusual readings or the Russians or Ramzi in 2005.

➡ I also reckon that they need to wipe all records and start again but far later than 2005 maybe January 1st 2018. Setting new records will generate interest and momentum in track again which will make that part of the sport financially viable again.

➡ I also want pacing to be no more than 1/2 the event's distance.

I do agree with your better yourself comments, that is what Lydiard and Bowerman used to stress.

The ambiguity and vagueness makes PED a poor choice of term, if you really only want to talk about the banned drugs enhancing performance. Your use of "O2-vector doping" is a better term, for EPO-era doping discussions. Still, the way you discuss "high responders to O2-vector doping synergistically combined with GH and androgens", while sounding exceedingly narrow and precise, still leaves answering "which athletes are high responders" and "which drug combinations are synergistic" subject to individual interpretation. I get a sense that you aren't really reading my answers, as I've repeatedly, exceeding explained what I'm saying and why, in long posts that everyone complains are too long and repetitive. The main trigger for my EPO discussions are rooted in Renato's claims about EPO not working for "top" athletes, and some of the counter-claims, like "we know EPO works for East Africans, because it works on everyone else". A key tenet of science, is to compare any scientific hypothesis or conclusion to the real world -- do we see confirmation in real world observations? And, more importantly, an often forgotten step, do we see contradictions in real world observations? This makes "EPO works on everyone else" subject to such observational analysis. One way to demonstrate that "it works for everyone else" is to observe the impacts (quantity and quality) on record times, and if they generally apply to "East Africans", "North Africans", and "everyone else". One key argument that EPO works, and is highly effective, is that the fast times that occurred on the track in the '90s and early '00s, by a few East Africans and North Africans. This makes barriers like sub-3:29, sub-13:00, sub-27:00 interesting. They were barriers for everyone, in pre-EPO times, and, for non-Africans, representing 85% of athletes globally, the EPO-era did not change that. If East Africans ran sub-27:00 in 1993, and eventually brought the record down to 26:17, it becomes difficult to explain Chris Solinsky being the first non-Afican to break 27:00, only after the introduction of the ABP, signalling the end of the EPO-era. In a sporting world where doping prevalence is admittedly more than 57%, where cycling showed us that EPO was universally abused, by all nations, while also largely undetected (1-2% detection rate), and EPO believed to provide up to 6% individual effect (Sumgong improved by 9 minutes) or more (Lombard gained 3 minutes), we have the first non-African only breaking 27:00 in 2010. This is not a single anomaly, but a near universal real world observation for all endurance running events of all time. The main hurdle in observing "the percentage gain in improvement from the runner's baseline times when the program was initiated", is that we rarely know "the runner's baseline times" or "when the program was initiated", or for that matter, what "the program" was. These values again, are often left subject to individual interpretation. So an athlete like Baumann, becomes a poster-boy for EPO success, even though he was busted for steroids two years after his 5000m record. It requires several assumptions that he "really" started taking EPO more than two years earlier and we are naive to "believe" otherwise. I'm looking for real world observations that do not require "assuming the conclusion".