Now it gets interesting, Zane Robertson's ex-girlfriend Betty Desalegn (Jama Aden athlete) is busted for Biological Passport

mindweak wrote:

no...you go away.

you dont like me calling out retardo then dont clink on the link

if you dont like me calling out vent/calKunto for his annoying 3'24 1500 WR jim ryun fantasy equations then dont click on the link

I'll "clink on the link" if I want to, buddy. A more appropriate resolution would be you to just STOP hijacking threads with your incessant and tired Kenyan/Epo fetish. Seriously, it's pathological. You're getting as bad as Ventolin/Calculo. Incidentally, we're all still waiting for you to post your real name as well. I feel that's only fair if you're going to butcher Renato's name in a negative fashion.

your love of the lies and myths is annoying. and i told you when retardo admits he is a fraud i will never again use a handle.

whats your name? you feel so strong to come at me with attitude yet you hide behind a low budget handle. whats next you want my high school and hs PR's, my college and college PRs? kinda creepy if you ask me, but since your prob a 35 yr old virgin living in your moms basement and ran for some NAIA or d3 you love that LR allows you to feel 10ft tall and bullet proof

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

➡the problem with this ⤴is that a "few honest" western countries that were strong at running in the 1960s, 70s & 80s were actually doing OOC testing on their own athletes during the 1990s.

How did they test OOC for a decade when there was no test for EPO?

Putting aside, these "few countries", what about the athletes from the remaining countries?

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

↔Seppelt did one important thing, that was to show the weak OOC in many countries and how easy it is to acquire PED.

You named two things, not one.

Sorry to disagree, but despite 6 or 7 documentaries, Seppelt has done nothing important in Kenya or Ethiopia.

rekrunner wrote:

Sorry to disagree, but despite 6 or 7 documentaries, Seppelt has done nothing important in Kenya or Ethiopia.

Apart from exposing widespread doping in Kenya, and widespread corruption in the IAAF which resulted in covering up of drugs tests. But you think that PEDs do not work so I guess that to you, Seppelt's undercover journalism never amounts anything important.

Nice summary...and you're probably right on all accounts.

What rekrunner would like is a RCT with a large population base of elite runners, which is never going to happen (wouldn't we all? ?). Of course the existing studies have no impact on him. He didn't like Durussel et al. (one of the few with actual running analyzed) because it involving non-elite trained runners & wasn't double-blinded. He didn't like Thomsen et al. (double-blinded with amateur cyclists) because it didn't involve elites either and the study evaluated cycling endurance...just to name a few.

So, what's left? Anecdotal evidence which, IMO, is very strong. And rekrunner is either oblivious to the plethora of anecdotal cases, or just trolling and having fun with everyone. Either way, better to stay on sidelines now and just watch this entertainment. ?

I'm talking about performances, and not medal wins. I want to compare magnitudes of changes, and for that, we need numbers for best performances. The issue with women is, that they can be such high responders to steroids, it's difficult to draw any comparisons or conclusions about EPO and blood doping unless you can eliminate this proven confounder. Look at 800m -- 5 of the top 6 times (from 4 out of the top 5 athletes) come from the 1980's. We know the Russians were mixing cocktails with steroids. Did the Chinese women take EPO? Steroids? Both? Neither? Ramzi certainly made a big jump in 2004, after changing his nationality, and training. Ramzi doesn't help answer my question here: why did the best non-Africans progressed so little during the EPO-era? If Ramzi could gain 9 seconds in one year, why did the non-Africans get doping with EPO so wrong?

rekrunner wrote:

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

➡the problem with this ⤴is that a "few honest" western countries that were strong at running in the 1960s, 70s & 80s were actually doing OOC testing on their own athletes during the 1990s.

How did they test OOC for a decade when there was no test for EPO?

Putting aside, these "few countries", what about the athletes from the remaining countries?

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

↔Seppelt did one important thing, that was to show the weak OOC in many countries and how easy it is to acquire PED.

You named two things, not one.

Sorry to disagree, but despite 6 or 7 documentaries, Seppelt has done nothing important in Kenya or Ethiopia.

➡roids, testosterone, stimulants and just for Bad Wigins, amphetamines. As "high octane doping" posted above those taking EPO were often on a muscle sandwich as well, so half the fun was potentially taken away. In the honest countries that brought in testing early, their athletes may have been fearful that EPO might soon be traceable and sanctions would be back dated. EPO wasn't detectable until 1999 in the TDF so that is correct but for many westerners runners the pay was so crap why would they risk killing themselves on epo for $30k p.a. That same amount was a bonanza in 3rd world countries. Nonetheless athletes in countries doing basic testing were at a disadvantage to athletes doing absolutely no testing.

Sorry. I give Seppelt partial credit for the IAAF and Russia, but note that Jack Robertson gift-wrapped Yulia Stepanova and placed her on Seppelt's doorstep, frustrated with WADA's lack of pace. But in Kenya, Seppelt has told us nothing of real value, despite 6 or 7 attempts. Posing as an agent, and finding a doctor or pharmacist who tell you anything to take your money is not good undercover journalism. Going to a local doctor, and watching no-name wannabe's get injected with EPO is not good undercover journalism. Going to a high performance training camp, buying EPO at a pharmacy, and then planting it in the trash is not good undercover journalism. Regardless if I think EPO works or not, did we learn any names from Seppelt in Kenya? We have lots of names in the IAAF and in Russia who participated in the corruption/extortion/bribery attempts. Who supplied dope to athletes like Kisorio, Jeptoo, and Sumgong? Who is under investigation thanks to Seppelt? What problems are being addressed thanks to these exposures?

undercover operator wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Sorry to disagree, but despite 6 or 7 documentaries, Seppelt has done nothing important in Kenya or Ethiopia.

Apart from exposing widespread doping in Kenya, and widespread corruption in the IAAF which resulted in covering up of drugs tests. But you think that PEDs do not work so I guess that to you, Seppelt's undercover journalism never amounts anything important.

rekrunner wrote:

Ramzi certainly made a big jump in 2004, after changing his nationality, and training. Ramzi doesn't help answer my question here: why did the best non-Africans progressed so little during the EPO-era? If Ramzi could gain 9 seconds in one year, why did the non-Africans get doping with EPO so wrong?

No kidding Ramzi made a big jump - after he started traning with Khalid Boulami! (imagine that).?

And don't forgot he dazzled everyone with his double gold performance in 05 while running around with those very high off-scores (148 & 157). He must have had the timing perfect to get his blood values elevated that high and yet go into the WCs not glowing (maybe CERA?....the test wasn't developed until 08 when in 09 he was nailed in a retested sample from Beijing).

And as an added bonus, his fellow Moroccan countryman, Adil Kaouch, grab the silver in the 1500 and later tested positive for EPO (reminds me of one-two doping train with Alptekin & Bulut at London ?).

Ramzi's was a high-responder to O2-vector doping; it happens with use of PEDs...nothing new there. And other non-African nations did progress during the EPO-era...start with the Spanish Armada. ?

Impressive palmars. Why do you think Ramzi was unable to do the same thing without EPO, with the right coach and the right mentality? The real value of his "response" to O2-vector doping is his "clean" potential, compared to his "O2 vector doped" potential. This is the problem with anecdotes and trying to say "high-responder to O2-vector doping" -- it's not obvious how to accurately get both numbers. While other non-African nations progressed, something to be expected over two decades, I asked why they progressed so little. What Spanish runners have run sub-13? Only an Ethiopian one. Sub 27:00? None. Sub 2:07 (to be fair) -- BINGO! Carlos Rey almost matched the 1988 World Record, 18 years later, but was busted for mesterolone (steroid) in 1999. The Spanish Armada on EPO were big fish in a little pond.

High-Octane Doping wrote:

Ramzi's was a high-responder to O2-vector doping; it happens with use of PEDs...nothing new there. And other non-African nations did progress during the EPO-era...start with the Spanish Armada. ?

rekrunner wrote:

I'm talking about performances, and not medal wins.

I want to compare magnitudes of changes, and for that, we need numbers for best performances.

Why not medal wins in either the Olympics or world championships? You have to run a pretty fast time to make the "A" standard, and usually even a faster time to advance to the finals. It doesn't get any better than Olympic gold. Marion Jones had five from Sydney only to have that all come crumbling down due to doping.

And "magnitude of changes?" What about the runner who can't make the "A" standard no matter what they do (e.g., change in coaches, training, nutrition, etc.) and initiates an EPO program and improves enough to get the standard. Say the runner continues to improve with the doping program to not only get the "A" standard, but ultimately run fast enough to advance to the final. Even if the runner finnishes dead last in the final, wouldn’t that be an enormous "magnitude of change;" going from no "A" standard to making the finals?

mindweak wrote:

your love of the lies and myths is annoying. and i told you when retardo admits he is a fraud i will never again use a handle.

whats your name? you feel so strong to come at me with attitude yet you hide behind a low budget handle. whats next you want my high school and hs PR's, my college and college PRs? kinda creepy if you ask me, but since your prob a 35 yr old virgin living in your moms basement and ran for some NAIA or d3 you love that LR allows you to feel 10ft tall and bullet proof

No, I see it only as fair to tell everyone your name if you're going to constantly bash on someone. You call him names, but then cry that you're being "bullied"? C'mon, man. Either get the stones to tell us you are, or shut the $&@? up. It's pretty much that easy. I think you're making a perceived Renato statement up in your head anyway. I think that's been covered ad nauseum. Unfortunately, it seems calling people names and throwing a tantrum is just your modus operandi. Good luck with all that.

First, welcome back, and thanks for the "coherent" complement. I am willing to look at all the evidence and I have looked at everything and considered everything. I think I've raised valid concerns every time.

rekrunner wrote:

What Spanish runners have run sub-13? Only an Ethiopian one. Sub 27:00? None. Sub 2:07 (to be fair) -- BINGO! Carlos Rey almost matched the 1988 World Record, 18 years later, but was busted for mesterolone (steroid) in 1999.

Cacho was a smoker running a PB of 3:28.95 in 97.

Anton ran close to sub-2:07, and Fiz ran 2:08. Both were dominant in WC marathons in the 90s. And there was suspicion surrounding the country's marathon success:

Ramzi in 2004 came from nowhere and ended El Guerrouj's 29 race 1500m winning streak.

Interestingly somebody uploaded a world x country race on here about a month ago and Adil Kaouch was 3rd (or near the top) and the race had Bekele, Kipchoge, Shaheen, Mottram, Choge etc yet only years earlier he couldn't keep up for long with elites as a pacer.

Interesting...it was the 2006 World XC Championships in Japan where he ran the short course 4k finishing 3rd just a few seconds behind Bekele's winning time. A little over a year later he tested positive for EPO - IC at the Gala Rome event (ironically after he set his mile PB of 3:51 about a month earlier).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_IAAF_World_Cross_Country_Championships

rekrunner wrote:[/b

The Spanish Armada on EPO were big fish in a little pond.

From 1992 to 2003 the Spanish were winning medals in the distance races at every single global T & F championship. These ranged from 1500m to the Marathon. In the 1995 World Cross country champs they won a team bronze in arguably the most competitive era of the event beating out Ethiopia's team which had Haile Gebreselassie running for them.

How many of the world's 193 nations did better during this time?

Anyway I guess that these facts are not important to you because you appear to think that:

1. Olympic and World championship medals don't really count - perfomances in these circumstances are mainly due to luck or simple tactics which don't have much to do with the physical abilities of the athlete.

2. EPO use was only detected in Spain by the Sanish police therefore the possibility that EPO was widely used in other nations (with no effort by their national police to try and survey its use) just cannot be considered.

nice so you are a douche calling me out, yet you change your handle ever time you post. you sound like the typical worthless weasel coward that stalks these boards 21 hrs a day from mommies basement.

i will call out retardo until he drops this EPO doesnt work on kenyans routine.....and if he is telling the truth i want to know how he has so much info on EPO and TOP TIER KENYAN ATHLETES.

next time you call me out to post with my real name you had better be posting with your real name or else just shut the F*CK up

mindweak wrote:

i will call out retardo until he drops this EPO doesnt work on kenyans routine.....and if he is telling the truth i want to know how he has so much info on EPO and TOP TIER KENYAN ATHLETES.

He has claimed that he has hundreds of data points of blood tests on elite athletes which would support his contention that EPO would not work. He promised that he would post all of them. That was back in May (I have been asking him to provide them for several years, but he actually promised that he would post them in May). He will occasionally post a couple of numbers from specific athletes but this has extremely limited value in looking for systematic effects.

He either does not have this information or that information does not say what he alleges it says.

Claiming that he has evidence and then failing to provide any evidence undermines everything he says.