Norwegian runner Sondre Moen 59:47 in Valencia half. 3rd best half by a non-african ever

calculo wrote:

COACH J.S å ä ö wrote:I don`t say that mr Canova isn`t a brilliant coach.....How could I? He has coached many fantastic runners to medals and records

he certainly is good but there are flaws

man one is that he doesn't encourage any weight-training

i was shocked to read that he said that vivian cheruyiot, not one of his runners but aware of her training, has never done 1 nanosecond of weights in her life !!!

she has the big gold & ran 29'32 !!!

how much faster coud she have been with some weight-training ???

this is the proof in the pudding : Korir is by far the best active 800 talent out there who had an execrable 1'46/1'47pb before he went to texas last year

he ran 1'43.1 on circuit when tired from long season but earlier had run 1'43.7 off huge -ve splits & inadequate drafting, a run which ideally off 2s +ve splits & perfect drafting to bell wouda been 1'42-low

he has gone from 1'46/1'47 in 1y to 1'42-low ability !!!

this is why & imagine what the run of the mill current Kenyan 1'43/1'44, 3'31/3'32, 7'30+, 13'00+, 27'00+, 2"05+ coud run if they followed below :

https://youtu.be/rV56kgDp0eg?t=337

Renato Canova wrote:

Calculo/Ventolin, don't put in the same pot runners of 800m and Marathon : the requirements for the events are very much different.

And, also, don't put in the same pot training in US (or Europe) and Africa, where all the athletes run a lot of km on hilly courses, that have the effect to improve the strength (specifically the strength endurance) more than using some specific session of weight lifting in a gym (something athletes have to do if their training is Always in flat areas).

If we find athletes with so wonderful natural technical action, such as Vivian Cheruiyot or Mary Keitany, who have the quality to use little fuel at the speed of long distances, and are 37 kg heavy, to use weights can only destroy the perfect balance (natural for them) they have between the speed, the specific endurance and the consumption of fuel.

Put in your mind that coaching is not something you can do with a calculator, but is to find different solution, on individual basis, for every athlete, looking at their morphology, their attitudes and the enviroment of their training.

You can find good "theorical" basis for your calculator, but can't consider all the factors out of your control.

Coaching an African athlete means to manage continuous emergencies, since a lot of factors are out of control.

Coaching is not a science, is an art.

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:Venti, why would skinny fast Kenyans replace a natural advantage that is working for them with one that is failing for us?

but it is the weight room where there has been the most radical shifting of plates and mindset. His strength and conditioning coach David McHenry has introduced him to powerlifting: traditionally the preserve of strong men and bodybuilders wanting their muscles to pop out like melons. He can squat 200lb, 1.5 times his bodyweight, for 4-6 reps He also flings and swings a kettlebell, a device that looks like a cannonball with a handle, to order. And there is a relish to his combinations on the boxing pads, part of a long core workout, even if he does leave his chin hanging in the breeze.

"I was a lot weaker before," Farah says. "All the core stuff, all the weights? I couldn't lift anything. I just used to run and do a bit of core but I never did specific stuff. That's been the difference for sure."

Salazar goes further. "He was flitting around before joining us. His training was haphazard. He was all over the place. He did no weight training. He would jog and do five minutes of drills with no stretching afterwards. And technically, Mo tended to over-stride towards the end of races. That's why he lost at the 2011 world championships in Daegu."

"Now he is not just a skinny guy, he's a strong wiry guy," he adds, pride evident. "And he's not gained more than a pound or two despite lifting heavy weights for power. People have always thought distance runners should lift light. Don't you believe it."

Renato Canova wrote:Calculo/Ventolin, don't put in the same pot runners of 800m and Marathon

the requirements for the events are very much different

And, also, don't put in the same pot training in US (or Europe) and Africa, where all the athletes run a lot of km on hilly courses, that have the effect to improve the strength (specifically the strength endurance) more than using some specific session of weight lifting in a gym (something athletes have to do if their training is Always in flat areas)

If we find athletes with so wonderful natural technical action, such as Vivian Cheruiyot or Mary Keitany, who have the quality to use little fuel at the speed of long distances, and are 37 kg heavy, to use weights can only destroy the perfect balance (natural for them) they have between the speed, the specific endurance and the consumption of fuel

Put in your mind that coaching is not something you can do with a calculator

but is to find different solution, on individual basis, for every athlete, looking at their morphology, their attitudes and the enviroment of their training

You can find good "theorical" basis for your calculator, but can't consider all the factors out of your control

Coaching an African athlete means to manage continuous emergencies, since a lot of factors are out of control

Coaching is not a science, is an art

calculo wrote:

Renato Canova wrote:Calculo/Ventolin, don't put in the same pot runners of 800m and Marathon

no

it is simple matter of degree

800 guys require more weight-training than M but proposal M runners require 0 or virtually 0 weight-training is absurd

the requirements for the events are very much different

only to matter of degree

And, also, don't put in the same pot training in US (or Europe) and Africa, where all the athletes run a lot of km on hilly courses, that have the effect to improve the strength (specifically the strength endurance) more than using some specific session of weight lifting in a gym (something athletes have to do if their training is Always in flat areas)

no

all the hill running in the world won't produce the leg power that squats will

mo was squatting reps of 200 pounds

that is real power development in the legs

the power development that let him charge away on last lap to 10 golds...

If we find athletes with so wonderful natural technical action, such as Vivian Cheruiyot or Mary Keitany, who have the quality to use little fuel at the speed of long distances, and are 37 kg heavy, to use weights can only destroy the perfect balance (natural for them) they have between the speed, the specific endurance and the consumption of fuel

utter nonsense

absolutely all the same coud have been said of mo who had wonderful loping stride, far longer than a guy of his height coud have expected

their was absolutely nothing more beautiful of vivian or mary's stride than there was of mo's

serious weigh-training did nothing to hamper mo's stride

weight-training did not destroy mo's stride, it enhanced it

it gave it more power & faster kick, a kick that vivian couda used in all those years she was being thrashed on last lap by the ethiopians

Put in your mind that coaching is not something you can do with a calculator

no but it can tell us what improvements are possible as above post showed what mo wouda likely been capable without salazar & then with salazar

but is to find different solution, on individual basis, for every athlete, looking at their morphology, their attitudes and the enviroment of their training

we are not talking totally different solution, just small variations in the solution

mo had no interest in doing weights before salazar & i don't believe he wanted to even when joining his camp

he was somewhat forced to but the results were spectacular

i see absolutely no difference to the situation with vivian or mary who are as alien to weights as mo was before joining salazar

You can find good "theorical" basis for your calculator, but can't consider all the factors out of your control

what factors ?

coach of best middle distance runner in world has taken out most of all the factors

he has kept mo winning & virtually injury-free for 7y

part of that is weight-training which makes you resilient to musculoskeletal injury

Coaching an African athlete means to manage continuous emergencies, since a lot of factors are out of control

agreed

but you can learn from coach like salazar who has worked best possible results with his guys when they spend time with him

Coaching is not a science, is an art

absolute nonsense

salazar has elevated it to a science

he has perfected all round training with roadwork/trackwork/weight-training/medical monitoring

if you don't learn that there is another level of coaching above that which you are doing in Kenya, then Kenyan youngsters can only await on your retirement & hope for replacements who are new young coaches willing to learn from likes of salazar, a "complete" coach, who understands all aspects of training & that to get optimum performance you don't just do running but incorporate serious weight-training with it, a total holistic attitude to training...

calculo wrote:

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:Venti, why would skinny fast Kenyans replace a natural advantage that is working for them with one that is failing for us?

eh ???

what we've seen is just basic natural talent & hard work with only 3rd world facilities to work with

it is no shock that man who has serious claim to best synthetic track 800m runner of all time in Wilson was completely euro based in his prime, living in denmark, altitude training in switzerland & had euro coach

the result was 1'41.24 in zurich off suicidal 200/400 which wouda been 1'40-flat if ideally paced

that's what 1st world training facilities can do to a Kenyan rather than the primitive, embarrassing set-up they have in eldoret

even the Big-Man who is a freak & other claimant to best ever synthetic track 80 guy used to find somewhere to do weights as he absurdly intially wanted to be a decathlete ?!

that weight-training stood him in good stead for later in career but seeing as he only weighs 167 at 6'3 & is still about 5 - 10 pounds underweight

the poster boy for "skinny" africans who excel when training properly in full facilities with weights & encouraged to use them is mo

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/apr/19/camp-mo-farah-london-marathon

but it is the weight room where there has been the most radical shifting of plates and mindset. His strength and conditioning coach David McHenry has introduced him to powerlifting: traditionally the preserve of strong men and bodybuilders wanting their muscles to pop out like melons. He can squat 200lb, 1.5 times his bodyweight, for 4-6 reps He also flings and swings a kettlebell, a device that looks like a cannonball with a handle, to order. And there is a relish to his combinations on the boxing pads, part of a long core workout, even if he does leave his chin hanging in the breeze.

"I was a lot weaker before," Farah says. "All the core stuff, all the weights? I couldn't lift anything. I just used to run and do a bit of core but I never did specific stuff. That's been the difference for sure."

Salazar goes further. "He was flitting around before joining us. His training was haphazard. He was all over the place. He did no weight training. He would jog and do five minutes of drills with no stretching afterwards. And technically, Mo tended to over-stride towards the end of races. That's why he lost at the 2011 world championships in Daegu."

"Now he is not just a skinny guy, he's a strong wiry guy," he adds, pride evident. "And he's not gained more than a pound or two despite lifting heavy weights for power. People have always thought distance runners should lift light. Don't you believe it."

i have followed the guy thruout his career & i can even estimate the improvement weight-training with sal has improved him by

before sal, mo was best euro distance runner but i believe he was on for the following as career potential if he'd stayed in england with his haphazard training :

~ 51.00 / 1'48.00

->

3'32.70

7'27.91

12'54.14

27'03.29

at his peak under sal, probably when he ran 3'28 for 2nd time in a vacuum behind Asbel, i believe his ability that day was

~ 49.25 / 1'44.75

->

3'27.03

7'17.51

12'37.96

26'34.05

estimate i have is that serious training with weights & of course more professional attitude to roadwork improved what wouda been his potential if staying forever in UK for his basic 400 speed by nearly 2s, his 800m ability by well over 3s, his 1500 ability by nearly 6s, his 3k by 10s, his 5k by 16s & 10k by nearly 30s

this is what proper weight-training can do for a "skinny african"...

calculo wrote:

Renato Canova wrote:Calculo/Ventolin, don't put in the same pot runners of 800m and Marathon

no

it is simple matter of degree

800 guys require more weight-training than M but proposal M runners require 0 or virtually 0 weight-training is absurd

the requirements for the events are very much different

only to matter of degree

And, also, don't put in the same pot training in US (or Europe) and Africa, where all the athletes run a lot of km on hilly courses, that have the effect to improve the strength (specifically the strength endurance) more than using some specific session of weight lifting in a gym (something athletes have to do if their training is Always in flat areas)

no

all the hill running in the world won't produce the leg power that squats will

mo was squatting reps of 200 pounds

that is real power development in the legs

the power development that let him charge away on last lap to 10 golds...

If we find athletes with so wonderful natural technical action, such as Vivian Cheruiyot or Mary Keitany, who have the quality to use little fuel at the speed of long distances, and are 37 kg heavy, to use weights can only destroy the perfect balance (natural for them) they have between the speed, the specific endurance and the consumption of fuel

utter nonsense

absolutely all the same coud have been said of mo who had wonderful loping stride, far longer than a guy of his height coud have expected

their was absolutely nothing more beautiful of vivian or mary's stride than there was of mo's

serious weigh-training did nothing to hamper mo's stride

weight-training did not destroy mo's stride, it enhanced it

it gave it more power & faster kick, a kick that vivian couda used in all those years she was being thrashed on last lap by the ethiopians

Put in your mind that coaching is not something you can do with a calculator

no but it can tell us what improvements are possible as above post showed what mo wouda likely been capable without salazar & then with salazar

but is to find different solution, on individual basis, for every athlete, looking at their morphology, their attitudes and the enviroment of their training

we are not talking totally different solution, just small variations in the solution

mo had no interest in doing weights before salazar & i don't believe he wanted to even when joining his camp

he was somewhat forced to but the results were spectacular

i see absolutely no difference to the situation with vivian or mary who are as alien to weights as mo was before joining salazar

You can find good "theorical" basis for your calculator, but can't consider all the factors out of your control

what factors ?

coach of best middle distance runner in world has taken out most of all the factors

he has kept mo winning & virtually injury-free for 7y

part of that is weight-training which makes you resilient to musculoskeletal injury

Coaching an African athlete means to manage continuous emergencies, since a lot of factors are out of control

agreed

but you can learn from coach like salazar who has worked best possible results with his guys when they spend time with him

Coaching is not a science, is an art

absolute nonsense

salazar has elevated it to a science

he has perfected all round training with roadwork/trackwork/weight-training/medical monitoring

if you don't learn that there is another level of coaching above that which you are doing in Kenya, then Kenyan youngsters can only await on your retirement & hope for replacements who are new young coaches willing to learn from likes of salazar, a "complete" coach, who understands all aspects of training & that to get optimum performance you don't just do running but incorporate serious weight-training with it, a total holistic attitude to training...

U.N.O. wrote:

[quote]calculo wrote:

salazar has elevated it to a science

he has perfected all round training with .........medical monitoring

if you don't learn that there is another level of coaching above that which you are doing in Kenya, then Kenyan youngsters can only await on your retirement & hope for replacements who are new young coaches willing to learn from likes of salazar, a "complete" coach, who understands all aspects of training & that to get optimum performance you don't just do running but incorporate serious weight-training with it, a total holistic attitude to training...

You really think Canova doen't follow or understand the science?

Just because he said that "coaching isn't science, it's art"?

You split hairs all the time and keep playing with words

Wrong again, and has the coaching experience, altitude training experience, and great knowledge to put all things together. If you can't do it, the science is useless. That's the art of coaching. You have to see the big picture, what the athlete has been done, what he hasn't done, what he could add into / change in his/her training, to keep progressing

calculo wrote:

U.N.O. wrote:

[quote]calculo wrote:

salazar has elevated it to a science

he has perfected all round training with .........medical monitoring

if you don't learn that there is another level of coaching above that which you are doing in Kenya, then Kenyan youngsters can only await on your retirement & hope for replacements who are new young coaches willing to learn from likes of salazar, a "complete" coach, who understands all aspects of training & that to get optimum performance you don't just do running but incorporate serious weight-training with it, a total holistic attitude to training...

no

"medical monitoring"... Yup, definitely he has.

You just don't realize how huge the improvement of Sondre N. Moen has been under Canova.

OVER 2,5minutes off at the HM, from already being at high level (1:02)!!!

You really think Canova doen't follow or understand the science?

yes

canova has absolutely no clue about weight-training

his worry is

1) that culturally Kenyans won't understand weight-training is important for running & boot him back to napoli

2) that Kenyans runners are stick-insects with no interest in weight-training

3) he is no proper coach & has no confidence to build a fast guy

Korir-1'43.1 shouda won the 800 in london if not injured in semis

a coach like canova if coaching a Kenyan 800 guy wouda been running him up hills until dirt fell out of his butt !!!

this is what Korir, who last year was ~ 46-flat, ran this year 43.34R !!!, worth 44-flat !!!

that is top 4 or 5 fastest anchor in history !!!

here is poor quality vid of it

https://youtu.be/_Vxu-54iSEo?t=145

explain how canova couda evergot fuuckin 43.34 off "hill-training" ??? as compared to Korir's own words of :

https://youtu.be/rV56kgDp0eg?t=334

speed = weight-training

this absolute 100% fact of running !!!

43.34 is top 4 or 5 anchor splits of all-time !!!

Korir has 44-flat intrinsic speed now & he didn't acquire it scrubbing up hills ???!!! as some coach believes is same

Just because he said that "coaching isn't science, it's art"?

it's utter drivel

it is a science

see Korir 43.34R above from "science" of weight-training

coud canova have got 43.34R off "hill running" ???

You split hairs all the time and keep playing with words

nonsense

Wrong again, and has the coaching experience, altitude training experience, and great knowledge to put all things together. If you can't do it, the science is useless. That's the art of coaching. You have to see the big picture, what the athlete has been done, what he hasn't done, what he could add into / change in his/her training, to keep progressing

utter drivel

see 46/47 runner into 43.34R above

learn :

running is science not art drivel