Does a knowledgeable coach tell his kids to "go out hard?"

Your Coach is probably telling you to "put yourself in the race". McDonnell and Lananna were famous for having their best teams control from the front. "Nothing good ever happens in the back". The sport is about beating people- not running personal bests or rationing your energy systems.

Fulton sheen you are a crazy person.

AuthorBigTonesSubjectRE: Does a knowledgeable coach tell his kids to "go out hard?"MessageYour Coach is probably telling you to "put yourself in the race". McDonnell and Lananna were famous for having their best teams control from the front. "Nothing good ever happens in the back". The sport is about beating people- not running personal bests or rationing your energy systems.

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Agree. Cross is about racing peopleband the course and the weather. Not about "times." Just got to put yourself in the mix, however that shakes out.

Fulton J. Sheen wrote:

I think it's a mistake because you are telling a kid to ruin their race.

(Going out hard could mean at a reasonably fast pace for you, not anyone else.

This is hard to coach and I would never use the phrase "go out hard," with anyone I was coaching for that reason. It is a mistake to go out very slow, I am not talking about that. However I want my kids to utilize their energy expenditure in an intelligent way.)

To me teaching racing strategy is the hardest thing to teach in coaching because it has to be fitted to the individual.

Comments, suggestions, discussion or divisive arguments?

Ummmmm...ever hear of John McDonnell?

Tusoteuthis wrote:

YEAH! YEAH!! GO OUT HARD!!

This is such great advice for kids, juniors, college and pros. BTW "hard" means "very close to your 400m max." See, look what might happen when you GO OUT REALLY HARD! WR!! But, you can't win, if you DON'T PLAY!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOS3RQU92Z4

This is not what I mean.

#1 First I am talking mostly talking about cross country.

#2 You must run at the pace/place where you should be.

#3 In the video the guy who won did not take off "like a bat out of hell."

Did anyone notice that he was in second place most of the way?

It does help make my point a little more clear in that people will misconstrue what you mean when you tell a high school kid to go out hard. In most cases he already intends to do exactly that.

I don't think a coach should ever use blanket strategies for the entire team.

Some runners do very well going out hard. Others need an even pace. While a final group (which I was in) needs to go out slow.

The coach should understand the strengths and weakness of each runner and help him with the proper tactics (and create groups within the team to work together if possible).

Now, it's certainly possible that you need some trial and error to discover the best race plan for you. You may think you are an even pace guy, only to discover that, actually, going out fast or slow) works better for you.

It's also not just go out slow and finish fast. You might well be a go out a little slow, run balls to the wall in the middle, and finish the best you can (as I discovered over the years was best for me).

It's only possible that the type of course matters a lot as well. Is it muddy, hilly, hard surface. All these conditions can affect how you best perform.

Fair enough. Terminology is important here. Perhaps I'm using the wrong term in "hard". In fact, I don't use it. When talking about Hershey, I will use "fast" as that's what it normally is.

"The race will go out fast."

Well of course it will, they are fast at the state championship level! But that does not mean that it is any different than any other race, unless it is muddy, windy, raining, etc.

I argue that you still can do well by starting slow in any conditions even if you are one that is the best in the field. Craig Virgin fell down during the early part of the World CC championships and if I remember correctly was as far back as 200th. He won the race. It just depends on how you do it.

I enjoyed your post and it's similar to how I think of things.

However I still have to argue that you still can do well by starting slow in any conditions even if you are one that is the best in the field. Craig Virgin fell down during the early part of the World CC championships and if I remember correctly was as far back as 200th. He won the race. It just depends on how you do it.

(Perhaps I should have said, "if you are the best in the field." I think though that the strategy of a conservative start is better than a fast start in any conditions for a 5K race. It might be better psychologically for a certain kid to let him "do his thing." But by the end of his career he might find out that a conservative start is best. Certainly any race could be ruled by a fast start if no one goes with them. The overwhelming plan is that you might wanna use the abilities given to you.)

"Go out fast" is a relative term and is dangerous for a coach to use. Give an example of a time when you had to use it for a team!!!

Fayettenam wrote:

Fulton J. Sheen wrote:

I think it's a mistake because you are telling a kid to ruin their race.

(Going out hard could mean at a reasonably fast pace for you, not anyone else.

This is hard to coach and I would never use the phrase "go out hard," with anyone I was coaching for that reason. It is a mistake to go out very slow, I am not talking about that. However I want my kids to utilize their energy expenditure in an intelligent way.)

To me teaching racing strategy is the hardest thing to teach in coaching because it has to be fitted to the individual.

Comments, suggestions, discussion or divisive arguments?

Ummmmm...ever hear of John McDonnell?

Ever heard of Fulton Sheen?

I repeat that your post was a good one. Thank you.

Let's ask Dave Wottle if even splitting is smart even when everyone else is taking it out hard.

Go out hard.

When it hurts, speed up.

konroh wrote:

So by phsyiological boundaries one can't go beyond the 7-10 seconds of anaerobic capacity

That is not correct.

The "alactic" CP/ATP system is the predominant energy system (not the only system in play) for the first seven seconds.

After that you're primary system when running at full effort (again, not the only system being used) is glycolysis. That system produces large amounts of hydrogen ions causing fatigue. This system is also anaerobic.

I got stronger throughout high school, like everyone, but wasn't finding success in cross country. I began sprinting at the start, rather than the finish of races to get out front, get out of traffic, avoid bottlenecks. Once there, I found the pace we settled into was very similar to what I'd been running otherwise, and the motivation of being at or near the lead prompted me to stay there. I'd often be able to sprint at the end, or wouldn't need to.

My senior year I won every non-important meet, a few invites, and was one second from being state champion. I was JV on a crappy team until I was a junior. My state showing meant I got a look as a walk-on in D1, even though my track times were generic.

Everyone is different.

Not a fan of going out "hard". I've always tell kids to go out comfortable or in control (which will still probably be a little faster than race pace anyways.) Have confidence in yourself to know you can maintain/ pick up the pace and work on picking off others.

Good Ol Days wrote:

Let's ask Dave Wottle if even splitting is smart even when everyone else is taking it out hard.

I've been very surprised in what I have heard him say in interviews and in speeches about that race but I think that he is an overly modest guy. LRC had a great thread where (I think it was a teammate of Wottle) wrote that Dave Wottle almost always came from behind in practice at Bowling Green College.

They also had a very practical drill that I am going to share with you. The coach would put them on the track (how many I have no idea) and they would run at mile pace or slightly faster. When he blew the whistle they were to build to a quick sprint until the next whistle which was usually about 20 yards or so.

Dave claims it was an accident that he ran the way he did in that 1972 final but in reality it's the way he trained all the time!

Beautiful Day wrote:

I got stronger throughout high school, like everyone, but wasn't finding success in cross country. I began sprinting at the start, rather than the finish of races to get out front, get out of traffic, avoid bottlenecks. Once there, I found the pace we settled into was very similar to what I'd been running otherwise, and the motivation of being at or near the lead prompted me to stay there. I'd often be able to sprint at the end, or wouldn't need to.

My senior year I won every non-important meet, a few invites, and was one second from being state champion. I was JV on a crappy team until I was a junior. My state showing meant I got a look as a walk-on in D1, even though my track times were generic.

Everyone is different.

Thank you for that example. That is not really an example of going out hard though as I explained before. What you did is use a alactic anaerobic sprint to get out of traffic at the beginning. You can do that and recover if it takes less than 5 seconds to do the sprint.

Many individuals will go hard for the entire first mile! You could be a good runner and in great shape this will kill off that ability. One will not be able to show where they are at. You were smart and found another way. However we do not have the complete story because we do not know what you were doing before that.

It could be many things. Perhaps you even ran only part of the second mile too fast. What I want from my kids is even distribution of energy. There is a tendency even for kids to sprint, jog, sprint somewhat during the course of each 200 meters during a 5K. Be consistent and utilize your energy for your best race.

Coaches can go ahead and tell their kids to "go out hard," just be darn sure they have been taught as to what that actually means.

Gnomieone wrote:

Go out hard.

When it hurts, speed up.

Gerry Lindgren did say that and says even more stuff like that now that

he is considered crazy and lives in Hawaii.

In fact I have heard that even when he was winning NCAA championships he was crazy. One of the things he said, in his prime, is that he "ran to inspire people not to win." He claimed that he never tried to win! He only wanted to go out hard to challenge people. (He also claimed he never measured the miles he ran. When Ron Clarke wrote a book and wanted Lindgren in it they went back and measured his courses and found he had been running over 200 miles per week. Clarke cut that figure down in his book because he did not want to discourage people.

Find the you tube.com race where he runs the 2 mile vs. Steve Prefontaine, Frank Shorter, and Marty Liquori. (Only those four, and I believe that Liqouri was injured at that time.) Lindgren and Pre ran that race like a fartlek workout! It was easily the worst tactical race I have ever seen at that level. Tune in to it if you can--- it took place in California on a dirt track.

The winning time was like 9:00 or slower and Shorter probably ran 9:15, Liquori 9:20. (As I recall Lindgren might have won by .1 second over Pre.)

Prefontaine was just entering Oregon.

By the way I have interviewed some of Pre's teammates. One said he was "retarded," in the way he ran his races.