A few years ago , 2010 or so, the dickwad at U-Alaska tried to build such a Kenyan team, the result: one suicide and another guy, Cheseto lost his feet to frostbite after almost dying in the wilderness.
But hey, they won their conference one year.
A few years ago , 2010 or so, the dickwad at U-Alaska tried to build such a Kenyan team, the result: one suicide and another guy, Cheseto lost his feet to frostbite after almost dying in the wilderness.
But hey, they won their conference one year.
WandaJune wrote:
A few years ago , 2010 or so, the dickwad at U-Alaska tried to build such a Kenyan team, the result: one suicide and another guy, Cheseto lost his feet to frostbite after almost dying in the wilderness.
But hey, they won their conference one year.
Sounds like that wasn't the right thing to do.
Too many parent shoving McD burgers and fries down their kids throats while telling them to play another video game while they go outside and have a smoke.
areusure? wrote:
dude what wrote:What's to stop American college kids from running 13:20-13:50?
Hard work.
American privilege.
I think the best way would be to have someone (like a Brother Colm) recommend runners with a lot of upside potential to go to a US boarding school for high school (or a normal US public HS with US family 'sponsors'. During those 4 years that school would crush local XC and maybe NXN while they learned enough English and math to meet TOEFL and SAT minimums. At that point, of course, these runners (if still gifted) would have to agree on attending the same D1 college. Of course, there would have to be a sizable donation (foundation) fund supporting the expenses of these kids through 4 years of US high school.By the way, our local HS has about 20-30 international students that are essentially doing the same thing - they came to the US on some sort of exchange program. However, they tend to be brianiacs and not athletes.
Harry the Harrier wrote:
'Just wow...' and 'Boogieman',
Before asking why the concept of recruiting a squad of foreign athletes (specifically Kenyan) to win at XC has never been used- and then belittling the poster 'uh, ever heard of UTEP' by saying the Miners are only "pretty much 800 and milers" please review the history of the sport.
UTEP program was won NCAA's a total of eight times- 1969, 1975, 1976, 1978, 1979, 1980,1981 and 1983 with runner-up finishes in 1973 and 1977. Officially the 1983 title was vacated due to infractions. The 1981 squad tallied 17 points which is the lowest in championship history. Here is that roster:
1 Mathews Motshwarateu
2 Michael Musyoki
3 Gabriel Kamau
5 Suleiman Nyambui
6 Gidamis Shahanga
(19) Sam Ngatia
(20) Thomas Mawan
While there are other programs with a similar recruiting philosophy during that time span only Western Kentucky (England) and Providence (Ireland, England) had success.
If WCAP were alive back then most of these Miner's would have continued on the US Army's "Rift Valley Express"* model and rewritten the American distance running record books. The athletes crush it in the NCAASs and graduate w/college degree and "green card" in-hand. What a deal! Simultaneously, WCAP exploits a immigration loophole called the Military Accessions Vital to the National Interest (MAVNI) and dangles fast-track US citizenship to these athletes for enlisting and holding their breath for ~ 6 months during initial Army training. The big WCAP "wink and a smile" is that these new American soldiers then move directly into F/T running versus soldiering in East Africa to support the United States Counter-Terrorism mission. As a result, doping is JV compared to WCAP with respect to disrupting the various US post-collegiate middle/long-distance running models.
All on American taxpayer dime --- awesome (not!)!
* A metaphor ... most of the UTEP Miners were Tanzanian.
Harry the Harrier wrote:
'Just wow...' and 'Boogieman',
Before asking why the concept of recruiting a squad of foreign athletes (specifically Kenyan) to win at XC has never been used- and then belittling the poster 'uh, ever heard of UTEP' by saying the Miners are only "pretty much 800 and milers" please review the history of the sport.
UTEP program was won NCAA's a total of eight times- 1969, 1975, 1976, 1978, 1979, 1980,1981 and 1983 with runner-up finishes in 1973 and 1977. Officially the 1983 title was vacated due to infractions. The 1981 squad tallied 17 points which is the lowest in championship history. Here is that roster:
1 Mathews Motshwarateu
2 Michael Musyoki
3 Gabriel Kamau
5 Suleiman Nyambui
6 Gidamis Shahanga
(19) Sam Ngatia
(20) Thomas Mawan
While there are other programs with a similar recruiting philosophy during that time span only Western Kentucky (England) and Providence (Ireland, England) had success.
I knew UTEP had some amazing Kenyan-derived teams back then, but that was over 30 years ago. I guess the hurdles to put this sort of thing together have become increasingly difficult to jump since then based on the other posters' explanations. What was different back then, if anything, that allowed UTEP to put those rosters together?
The UTEP guys were mostly Tanzanian, huh? Maybe an easier crop to pick???
- Fertile ground for NCAA programs in the Conference USAs and the token East African that elite programs like OK State, Iona, etc recruit to get over the hump. Not to mention my favorite --- WCAP!
I knew UTEP had some amazing Kenyan-derived teams back then, but that was over 30 years ago. I guess the hurdles to put this sort of thing together have become increasingly difficult to jump since then based on the other posters' explanations. What was different back then, if anything, that allowed UTEP to put those rosters together?
Back then there was no age limit with athletes. Also, it was a lot easier academically you could take any classes you wanted to stay eligible. Those guys didn't get along well either especially the Tanzanians and Kenyans, they had to train them apart otherwise they'd kill themselves in practice.
Richmond had 3 Kenyan Olympians back in the 70s.
In addition to the problems associated to getting them in the country, Kenyans require substantial aid. Lots of coaches get burned by spending full scholarships on Kenyans who do not run well. Since they are so expensive you can not afford to miss.
UTEP does so well because their coach is Kenyan and can more effectively vet the runners in the recruiting process. Even still, UTEP can only afford to carry about six, and in years that one or two don't work out UTEP does not make nationals.
True
But, isn't a lot of what people are talking about (SAT scores, English Second Language Learner, etc.) rectified by NAIA colleges?
Or, to complicate things, what about a D-III school offering (ahem, "academic") scholarships to much slower Kenyans, but still fast enough to win D-III Championships?
Just wow... wrote:
My thought is that most schools would not go this approach simply because it would take the joy and challenge of coaching and developing kids to the get to next level out of the equation, but that may be a bit naive. I certainly don't think guys like Mark Wetmore or Chris Fox would want to just inherit a bunch of 13:30 Kenyans.
Recruiting fast kids doesn’t mean that you give up on trying to develop them. You’re still trying to make the runners faster, whether they come in as a 13:45 guy or a 15:45 guy.
a few things wrote:
In addition to the problems associated to getting them in the country, Kenyans require substantial aid. Lots of coaches get burned by spending full scholarships on Kenyans who do not run well. Since they are so expensive you can not afford to miss.
UTEP does so well because their coach is Kenyan and can more effectively vet the runners in the recruiting process. Even still, UTEP can only afford to carry about six, and in years that one or two don't work out UTEP does not make nationals.
You are correct. Coach Ereng shows up in El Doret with US taxpayer provided scholarships & no doubt ---- despited NCAA regulations, he holds tryouts. How much kickback he's getting is TBD. Can you imagine showing up in El Doret w/a full-scholarship in-hand? A Messiah!
Ever heard of Washington State?
Just Guessing Here... wrote:
But, isn't a lot of what people are talking about (SAT scores, English Second Language Learner, etc.) rectified by NAIA colleges?
Or, to complicate things, what about a D-III school offering (ahem, "academic") scholarships to much slower Kenyans, but still fast enough to win D-III Championships?
How does being in DII, DIII, or even the NAIA, get around required SAT or ACT scores, English proficiency, immigration requirements, and so on? Are you suggesting that only NCAA DI schools require those sorts of things from prospective students?
Just wow... wrote:
If they did it right, they'd be NCAA champs every year. There are dozens of guys in Kenya that fast or faster who would be eligible, right? Has any NCAA XC team roster had five or more sub 13:40 guys in the same season? It sounds very doable with good recruiting.
Stanford?
Hall
Lunchini
Ian Dobson
Sage
?
I don't think Alabama would do it. I may be incorrect --that they would have 5 line up-- but there is a sort of understanding that we won't see a UTEP type situation again with an East African squad.
The UHouston caused a stir with an Aussie crew. They got things started.
UTEP began with Brits and D11 transfers believe it or not. They went heavily African about a decade later after Henry Rono was dominating at WSU.
Wayne Vandenburg, following graduation, he became the assistant track & field coach. At the age of 24, he was appointed the head cross country and track & field coach at Texas Western College, which during his tenure, became the University of Texas at El Paso or “UTEPâ€. He is widely credited with building the nationally acclaimed cross country and track & field programs
Just go back to the 75 - 80 era at WSU.
Henry Rono, Josh Kimeto, Samson Kimwamba
And others.
It was a dream team.