#1 Colorado women edge #3 New Mexico at 2017 Joe Piane Invitational

old mexico wrote:

The problem people have with the team out there, is that it is a collection of established runners, no development whatsoever. Each year they add a couple of 5th year types and a foreigner or two and like instant oatmeal, you have team.

From what I hear, they often practice on their own, the coach stays out of the way and lets them do their thing. Hard to take pride in that.

Simply not true. Yes, Kurgat and the other transfers are undoubtedly having an impact on their season (transfers are also impact other top teams' seasons i.e. Oregon), but you simply cannot say that UNM does not develop talent. For example, Alice Wright ran a time of 19+ for the 5k at the Notre Dame invitational in 2013--hardly All-American material--but look where she is now.

UNM has many American girls (many from New Mexico/ABQ), it just so happens that Franklin is such a good recruiter that the foreigners he gets are top-notch, then he develops them even further. (And he doesn't have to run any of his athletes into the ground to develop them.)

And as to your managing comment, you are wrong. You can't tell me that it is possible to "manage" your team to a national title.

Sure, they run easy runs on their own, but why do they need a coach for that? (there will be an assistant coach at some runs anyways). They all do their workouts together except for maybe their top three who are fast enough to run with the slower guys.

If you tell me that the best women's XC team in history (2015) was "managed" to get to that status, you are simply ignorant...or a Buffs fan.

I love instant oatmeal wrote:

Plus, say in a few years they get Allie O to transfer to UNM for her 5th year and win an XC championship. I don't think they would have a hard time taking pride in that.

Yea I think I would absolutely lose it if this happened. I can dream

Lobo ladies wow wrote:

Yes, lobo ladies will rock once #5 gets on board. They have the potential to go sub-50 points again at ncaas. I love their recruiting strategy, and would do exact same if I was coach of UNM. ABQ is a great place to train, and eventually top domestic kids will seek UNM in order to train with the best.

Pathetic? I think not. Joedirt is pathetic, and deluded, if he thinks Wetmore would have turned away Kurgat if she had wanted to go to CU. Good young runners outside US don't even approach CU due to non-inclusive rep they have built over the years.

I love domestic runners being one myself, but think it makes everyone better when the best runners in the world choose to compete in NCAAs

I see a couple of problems with UNM trying to recruit domestically.

1. The school is simply not too attractive athletically. We have two national championship winning teams. Skiing, and the 2015 women's XC team. Now tell me, would a top-level HS kid want to come here, or go to a place like Oregon or CU. Oregon is the birthplace of Nike, the home of Pre, and has multiple top-level athletic teams, not to mention the many XC titles they have. CU has multiple titles, good athletic teams, and Running with the Buffaloes. You tell me where you would go if you were a top HS guy/girl looking to succeed in the NCAA.

2. UNM is not exactly known for having great academics. Compare it to most other national-ranking teams and you can see.

3. The UNM budget isn't very large in general. The money that does go to athletics gets squandered and wasted on our trash Basketball/Football teams. (Our football team/school is still proud that we beat Boise St. ONCE about 3-4 years ago). If you were Franklin, wouldn't you want to spend the little money you do get for recruiting on people who are sure to help you win? Might as well use that UK pipeline while you have it, and what coach wouldn't try to get Ednah Kurgat?

4. Location. Yes ABQ has a great training environment, but so does CU, Oregon, Stanford, etc. I wouldn't believe that location would be much of a factor in determining where a top notch high schooler would want to go. It's different for pro-teams/Kenyans, but it wouldn't be that important for a 18 year old trying to make it in the NCAA

I still think Oregon is better then both New Mexico and Colorado though if New Mexico finds a 5th they might beat Oregon at NCAA's but that's a big if. Oregon 1 New Mexico 2 Colorado 3 Stanford 4th

FriedlyLobo has it backwards. UNM is fully funded on both the men's and women's side, which makes it laughable how crappy the men's team is. Franklin is an excellent manager and smart in that he sees patterns well. He is absolutely not that knowledgeable about the science of the sport, but he has four-six basic workouts that he employs that are safe for the runners (10x400, ladder 200-1200/1600, 8-10xk, 6-8xk/400, slow 800s before a race and a tempo run every friday along the river). There is zero individualization, so no development there. These workouts work extremely well for the UK athletes who were brought up in a system where they simply do very intense interval based training with short recoveries with little focus on LT work. By using tempo runs consistently, Franklin is able to capitalize on the talent of these UK runners. He absolutely does not develop local athletes. There have been a couple locals who have done well, but by and large, high school runners from ABQ or NM who go to UNM do not develop. It is what it is, but don't try and defend this system for what it is not.

I love how we are debating this. They are very good and it's all because they "aren't coached well?" I call bs. Is kurgat faster now then she was at liberty? Yes..... much faster. I hardly believe that is due to "managing." We get it, you hate foreigners. I would think that at a minimum a change in environment has made a difference and I'm sure coach franklin has played a large role in that.

Why wouldn't a coach recruit the best out there? They are good kids and are getting a great education and most importantly are coming out of the program and living successful lives.

I'd rather see all that scholarship money going to American kids!

MAGA

I don't know about the physical training at New Mexico, but Coach Franklin certainly appears to be a strong motivator of his athletes. And their NCAA champion miler on the men's side (sophomore Josh Kerr from England) improved substantially last year.

Kurgan looked unbeatable. Wright was solid. No better 1-2 punch. Kept waiting on Jones to flash the closing speed and run down both.

Interesting to note that two freshmen from state of Colorado were in the top 20 and neither runs for Colorado. How did the Buffs get neither?

Any video of this race out here?

Buffs got neither because Wetmore can come across as one weird dude. Also sometimes kids are just looking for change of scenery, and were just looking to get out of state

Loller coaster wrote:

[quote]FriendlyLobo wrote:

Is Lehigh even D1? Not sure what nationality, but you can't be a moron and go to Lehigh, so I'd guess she's from the USA.

Pretty sure I've met a person or two from other countries who weren't morons. Probably just got lucky. :)

All the Fab Five not from Michigan

I see one huge reason why UNM would have a hard time trying to recruit domestically: You can run there, but you will likely never get to travel because your going to be surpassed by some foreigner they bring in the next year. Is UK athletics paying for their athletes to come here and train at altitude? I don't see any UK schools doing the same for US students. The foreign athlete phenomenon is a one way street. Do you honestly think that UNM is at a greater disadvantage in recruiting than Southern Utah? They are a legit team this year. As far as Edna Kurgat is concerned, there are probably a couple dozen comparable runners in Kenya. Any school could choose to do so, they just don't. Like I said, NCAA track and field as a whole is about 10%, your top 9 is closer to 75%, so don't say that every other NCAA team is doing it.

joedirt is so observant and intelligent. He figured out how to recruit and win NCAAs! Any school, you see, can just send someone to Iten and find "a couple dozen" Edna Kurgats to recruit! Its that easy! Just drag a scholarship contract through the streets of Iten and watch them all leave their family and friends for a chance to run at your fine university in the NCAAs! Thank you joedirt - we are forever grateful for your keen insights. Indeed, I'm booking tickets for my asst coach to go to Iten now. I don't want 24 Kurgats, but 4-6 would do just fine!

joedirt wrote:

As far as Edna Kurgat is concerned, there are probably a couple dozen comparable runners in Kenya. Any school could choose to do so, they just don't. Like I said, NCAA track and field as a whole is about 10%, your top 9 is closer to 75%, so don't say that every other NCAA team is doing it.

You're implying that UNM actually went to Kenya to recruit Kurgat, yet forget that she came from Liberty.

Public universities in the United States are not restricted to US born individuals. Why should the NCAA be? The NCAA is not meant solely for American kids in college.

Ok I concede to that point lol. I personally hold a grudge against our other sports teams because they are garbage. I think I've only sat through half a football game ever and maybe one whole basketball game.

Isn't coaching all about seeing patterns and then using that knowledge to increase your runners' abilities? And whether he is knowledgeable about the science of the sport or not he gives his runners the right workouts that they need to succeed. I agree that his system could use some variety to avoid burnout/plateau, but it's certainly better than running his team into the ground with shorter and/or faster intervals. Also I wouldn't say that the tempo runs are traditional tempos either. They start at tempo pace and progress down tremendously. It turns into a much harder effort than your average tempo.

Perhaps this is more a reflection of US high schools not focusing enough on aerobic development. I am from a local HS in ABQ and the majority of my quality work (let's say 90-95%) was interval work of 1k or shorter. Maybe American athletes in general could better succeed in the NCAA if they were more aerobically developed rather than have endless short intervals pounded into their legs. It seems Franklin understands this, which leads him to overlook the majority of U.S. high schoolers and go straight for what he knows will be a winning formula.

Loboland wrote:

I don't know about the physical training at New Mexico, but Coach Franklin certainly appears to be a strong motivator of his athletes. And their NCAA champion miler on the men's side (sophomore Josh Kerr from England) improved substantially last year.

Josh Kerr is from Scotland, bud. Surprised someone named Loboland can't even get that right when he's now basically the face of their men's middle distance program. Yes, he did definitely improve last year but it's worth nothing that he was also 4th in the U.K. Olympic trials in 2016 as an 18 year old.

So joedirt, if it so f'in easy to go find "a couple dozen Kurgat's" in Kenya, then why (out of the hundreds of D1 and D2 schools) have not one school had the brainpower you possess to go over to Kenya and come home with 5-6 "Kurgats"? Trust me, the AD and University as a whole would love you for bringing more "diversity" on campus with the Kenyan recruits. Indeed, if I was head coach of a low-ranked D1 squad that can't fill my scholarships with top 20 FL or NXN runners, I'd tell my AD that if you want to make a "splash" I can win NCAA D1 XC in 1 or 2 years if you let me go get some "Kurgats" in Kenya. Its a win-win. I'd get a D1 podium squad, and the AD would would get a bonus for getting more diverse international students on campus. Book my ticket to Iten!

joedirt on this thread is an absolute brain-dead knucklehead.