Chris Froome & Zola Budd prove only advantage Kenyans have is altitude

El Keniano wrote:

Altitude Not Genes wrote:

Where in the title do I say Zola Budd was born in Kenya?

My argument is that as a white African raised at altitude (and not even nearly as high as most Kenyan runners) she was still arguably the greatest talent Africa has produced, and arguably greater than any Kenyan female.

Excuse me? Off the top of my head ... Vivian Cheruiyot, Sally Barsosio, Mary Keitany, Catherine Ndereba, Faith Kipyegon, Agnes Tirop, Joyciline Jepkosgei, Peres Jepchirchir and Hellen Obiri have all shown to be more talented than Budd ever was over a spectrum of distances. Just what in the world are you smoking?

Well I doubt if there's may women running even today who have ran 2 minute 800m and 14:48 for 5000m. Most her PBs set as a teenager from 800m to 5000m would have ranked her (Zola Budd) in the top 30 in 2016 (olympic year). Her Mile and 3000m pbs would have ranked her 2nd in each distance. She was running 30 years ago, barefoot, pre EPO, and set her best times at 19 years old when she still had a lot of potential for improvement that went untapped. I wonder how many drug free, non-age cheat African juniors have ran faster than she was as a teen? Probably none.

Just to take the first name off of your list and compare lifetime pbs. Vivian Cheruiyot was running two decades later, and I assume doped to the gills with EPO.

Zola Buddds PBs

800 m – 2:00.9 (1984)

1500 m – 3:59.96 (1985)

Mile – 4:17.57 (1985)

3000 m – 8:28.83 (1985)

5000 m – 14:48.07 (1985)

10,000 m – 34:57.1A (1994)[2]

Vivian Cheruiyot's :

1500 m 4:06.65 Doha, Qatar 11 May 2007

3000 m 8:28.66 Stuttgart, Germany 23 September 2007

5000 m 14:20.89 Stockholm, Sweden 29 July 2011

10000 m 29:32.53 Rio de Janeiro, Brazil 12 August 2016

10 km (road) 30:47 San Juan, Puerto Rico 26 February 2012

Marathon 2:23:50 London, Great Britain 23 April 2017

Pretty comparable when you factor in the likely EPO and 20 years of improvement in training and competition for female distance runners.

In 2014, at the age of FORTY EIGHT, she entered the Comrade Marathon, which is the oldest and most prestigious ultra-marathon (90km) in the world. She finished SEVENTH. The Comrade Marathon has over 20,000 participants, hands out prize money well in excess of a million dollars for the top 10 finishes, and is held in SOUTH AFRICA. I wonder where all these genetically superior Bantu runners were thinking when they were seeing the ass of a 48 year old whitey ahead of them? The next year she won a Marathon in the USA in a time of just over 3 hours AT NEARLY FIFTY YEARS OF AGE.

BTW, even if Zola Budd's family were several generations in Africa, it wouldn't make any difference. Her grandfather was British, her other 7 grandparents were almost certainly Boer (i.e Dutch).

*Budd still has the 14th best 5000m time by a junior, and if you took out Ma's Chinese army, it would still be top 10. Only four Kenyan teens have ran faster than her. She still has the 9th best junior time for 1500m, again - top five leaving out the Chinese. Only one Kenyan has ever ran faster than her. She has the all time best junior time for the Mile. She has the top 2 best junior times at 3000m.

Genetics- Froome's dad was indeed square-shaped:https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81oK440ZKNL._SL1500_.jpg

sageisararename wrote:

His body is too heavy for his knees. That's why he rides bikes and doesn't run.

Snap, snap.

http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article2038969.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/SKY-Procycling-riders.jpg

Altitude Not Genes wrote:https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-YthsUhWMhXo/V8MjUNnr8CI/AAAAAAAAA2o/qgI_TMBXnuoO8oDcusyJLHeTSp39t-tPACEw/s1600/Skinny%2BChris%2BFroome.jpg

/thread

Up Runner wrote:

Genetics- Froome's dad was indeed square-shaped:

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81oK440ZKNL._SL1500_.jpg

sageisararename wrote:

His body is too heavy for his knees. That's why he rides bikes and doesn't run.

Snap, snap.

http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article2038969.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/SKY-Procycling-riders.jpg

Altitude Not Genes wrote:

I wonder how many drug free, non-age cheat African juniors have ran faster than she was as a teen? Probably none.

Then there's no point in even attempting to engage in a rational discussion with you.

Please stop, don't dig deeper !

The prize money is in RAND, not Dollars :

Which means that the prize money does not even exceed 100 000 dollars in Total for the top 10 finishes.

it is nowhere near the big marathons and the international competitions is joke at Comrades.

Wow ! Incredible, its more than one half an hour behind the Women Masters 50 marathon record...

I have no idea if the premise of certain Africans areas having a genetic advantage is true or not but pulling outliers from other populations certainly does not prove it isn't the case.

Success in athletics or specifically distance running would not be mutually exclusive in any population as every population has outliers. The argument is more are there a greater number of these outliers in a definable population vs. others.

If you trace our human ancestry back to an original population, that population by definition would have the largest variation of genetic characteristics of any (including those traits needed to be exceptional at distance running). As pieces of that population migrated the best they could do would be to have an equal amount of variation if they managed to have a similar diversity. Conceptually most would not.

Now if human development was concurrent in multiple places than that argument goes out the window. Lots to be debated on that point.

Genes do matter. You wouldn't deny that. Genes which made Budd likely to weigh app. 1.8 pounds per inch while in her prime aided here success. From what you state, you mean racial gene. Some citizens in Ethiopia have family roots there for thousands of years. Ethiopians in aggregate have a gene which makes them highly resistant to altitude sickness. Can that same gene make Ethiopians great 5000m to Marathon athletes? It is a factor to consider. Elevation of Addis Ababa, 7726 feet. Bloemfontein, RSA elevation, place of birth, Zola Budd, 4577 feet. Budd's family history in Bloemfontein, RSA was not far enough back for Budd family genes to mutate most likely. Bloemfontein, RSA is similar in altitude to Pueblo, CO. Pueblo, CO, 4692 feet elevation. I cannot feel the difference nor see difference in my training from roughly 1000 ft. (considered sea level) to 4500 ft. elevation.

I think you don't really know what "prove" means.

I'm surprised no one has offered Emma Coburn as an example. She grew up in Crested Butte, which is 8900 ft above sea level.

sageisararename wrote:

His body is too heavy for his knees. That's why he rides bikes and doesn't run.

Snap, snap.

:

I've been waiting so damn long for someone to post this.1. Kiprop's waist is relatively smaller than Froome's.2. Kiprop is ALL legs. How can your legs break if you're all legs? http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/asbel-kiprop-of-kenya-wins-the-mens-1500-m-final-left-elija-motonel-picture-id543884690

Hmm....... wrote:

sageisararename wrote:

His body is too heavy for his knees. That's why he rides bikes and doesn't run.

Snap, snap.

https://www.google.com/search?q=kiprop+photo&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiq-er12bfWAhWoz4MKHavYDNMQ_AUICygC&biw=1777&bih=855#imgrc=bCD6wpgU-aP2VM

:

Altitude Not Genes wrote:

Chris Froome and Zola Budd are two of the most naturally talented endurance athletes that Africa has ever produced,

I don't doubt for a minute Zola Budd is an extremely gifted athlete. She is still crushing fun runs. The sign of an extraordinary engine.

Froome had an unspectacular record in South Africa, rode around Europe for a while on b-teams, then suddenly hits the podium on a three week grand tour and is otherwise nowhere to be seen. Funny how the only thing he rides is ASO stage races. Another UCI-sanctioned doper.

2/10 for getting so many replies.

Titicaca wrote:

So that's why Bolivians dominate distance running.

Thanks.

Bolivians don't care much about it. Now, give them the tools

and sponsorship money to develop talent (as I believe is done in Kenya and Ethiopia ) and I believe they can produce great distance runners, just as Colombia and Mexico did back in the days.

why bothering wrote:

Altitude Not Genes wrote:

I wonder how many drug free, non-age cheat African juniors have ran faster than she was as a teen? Probably none.

Then there's no point in even attempting to engage in a rational discussion with you.

Word. ANG starts by assuming all the evidence against his conclusion is false and hey! all of the remaining evidence supports his point.

That said, Zola Budd was and is amazing.

sageisararename wrote:

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/asbel-kiprop-of-kenya-wins-the-mens-1500-m-final-left-elija-motonel-picture-id543884690

Why's he rocking his road id bracelet? Surely they know who he is.

Wow! Yes it is impressive considering she's running part-time in a little race, in very windy conditions, with no (female) competition whilst training for an ultra-marathon. The Ukrainian I assume was a full-time Masters competitor and running in big events. She was also...you know, from the Soviet Union. She (the Ukrainian WR holder) is also way faster than most other Masters.

Budd ran under 3 hours, pretty sure she could have run quite a bit faster. Even the time she did record would likely be in the top 100 masters for her age group. How many people on Earth do you think are in the top 100 all time junior rankings for every distance from 800m to 5000m AND in the top 100 for Marathon 45+ (as well as obviously, the ULTRA Marathon)?? Not bad for a girl who was pretty much burnt out by the fame and controversy while she was still a teen.

pop_pop!_v2.2.1 wrote:

Altitude Not Genes wrote:

Chris Froome and Zola Budd are two of the most naturally talented endurance athletes that Africa has ever produced,

I don't doubt for a minute Zola Budd is an extremely gifted athlete. She is still crushing fun runs. The sign of an extraordinary engine.

Froome had an unspectacular record in South Africa, rode around Europe for a while on b-teams, then suddenly hits the podium on a three week grand tour and is otherwise nowhere to be seen. Funny how the only thing he rides is ASO stage races. Another UCI-sanctioned doper.

2/10 for getting so many replies.

Well I'm no cycling expert but didn't he just become the first man in history to win the Tour de France AND another important race in the same year? And then tried for the fabled treble last week in a road time trial and came very close by winning the bronze.

why bothering wrote:

Altitude Not Genes wrote:

I wonder how many drug free, non-age cheat African juniors have ran faster than she was as a teen? Probably none.

Then there's no point in even attempting to engage in a rational discussion with you.

Yeah, o.k. Drug cheating isn't more likely in countries with little or no testing, massively greater incentives, and rife with corruption. Also, any black kid in any Kenyan village if given a bike could become tour de france champion and earn $30 million a year. Zola Budd is crap and the result of white privilage and am I really claiming that her grandad didn't get cucked by the African farm hand? And she DID trip Mary in LA!

Kenyans and Ethiopians are the master race, thread closed please :/

But can we at least admit that the North Africans are cheating dopers?

El Keniano wrote:

Altitude Not Genes wrote:

Where in the title do I say Zola Budd was born in Kenya?

My argument is that as a white African raised at altitude (and not even nearly as high as most Kenyan runners) she was still arguably the greatest talent Africa has produced, and arguably greater than any Kenyan female.

Excuse me? Off the top of my head ... Vivian Cheruiyot, Sally Barsosio, Mary Keitany, Catherine Ndereba, Faith Kipyegon, Agnes Tirop, Joyciline Jepkosgei, Peres Jepchirchir and Hellen Obiri have all shown to be more talented than Budd ever was over a spectrum of distances. Just what in the world are you smoking?