Wait what? I'm supposed to believe Eliud Kipchoge ran 2:08 marathon pace for 40k at altitude in training?

Go to see how much time before Olympics US organized Marathon Trials in 1972, when Shorter won in München. Go to see how many marathons the athletes of 40 years ago were able to run in one year, but especially how much time they used in between, and you can see that recovery is something regarding the mental situation, more than the physiological situation.

What can do the difference is the motivation. A well trained athlete can recover 40 km submaximal in one week, and this is exactly what they do.

For example, 30 days after running in Boston in 2:03:06 his first Marathon, Moses Mosop ran in training 18 times 1000m with recovering 1'20", the first in 2'45", the next 16 in 2'42" and the last in 2'36", for preparing the attempt against the WR of 30 km (10 days later, so exactly 40 days after Boston), record that he bettered with 1:26:47, still the current WR.

The big difference is that training is part of the plan, and the athlete has total concentration not only for the session itself, but for what has to do AFTER that session. The Marathon race, instead, is the final act of a long period of total concentration, and the athlete, after the race, needs to mentally relax (not depending on the fact the final result was good or not : the race is the final station, while 40 km in training are an intermediate station).

Another thing is that the practice to have several sessions at high intensity can make for the athlete more easy to recover in short time, making his effort something usual. On the contrary, more comfortable training, with lower level of intensity or lower volume, can preserve energy, but at the same time have a very higher cost for body and mind when the athlete needs to express himself at the max level, during a competition.

There are no other ways for reaching the best personal potential limits.

Every other system can only bring athletes NEAR that level, but never they can reach their best.

2:08 for Kipchoge is about 5% slower than what he can probably run all out. So, aside from the altitude, this doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility.

HMArunner wrote:

The dude covered 26.2 miles in 2:00:26!!!! I don't care of he had paces, optimal weather, wind shield, fluids, etc. He still covered it in 2 hours flat. 2:08 pace should feel very easy for him honestly!!!

You don't care about that, meaning you wouldn't care if he ran it with breaks every 10km either. He stil ran it in 2:00:26, just with breaks!

Wow, I'm speechless. I understand your commentary. There are many stations that a runner runs to exact the final act, and in order to express the final act at a certain intensity, then that intensity must be practiced during the intermediate station.

Now, my question is, what is the beginning station that starts the process? Is it base building or aerobic storing? I just want to have a clear picture of the entire 3 phase process, from beginning station, to intermediate station ( marathon race goal intensity simulation) , to final act ( marathon race at goal intensity).

Yes, you are right. That is level of thinking and preparing that Americans do not practice, and may not have the ability to practice, considering how physically and mentally demanding those routines are. Take Ryan Hall for instance, the fastest american marathoner of all time, and a guy who unintentionally paced a Kenyan to a Boston Marathon course record ( Imagine that, an american pacing a kenyan), he was physically and mentally toast by the age of 28. He ran 2:04 and 2:06, but his body just couldn't hold up to the training, and he went from 2:04 to not being able to finish races. Now he is a cross fit guy who can barely run 7:00 min pace.

East Africans appear to have this ability to string along stations without any issues with recovery, so there is never any interruption in their running evolution. The progression is constant. However, the only question that will always present itself : Is it all natural? I'm not asking you to answer that question. I'm just saying that question will always present itself in regards to the incredible recovery that takes in between the 42km MP long run and the actual marathon race.

2:04:12 is a far cry from 2:02. It seems then we won't see a new WR on Sunday.

Sledge_hammer wrote:

2:04:12 is a far cry from 2:02. It seems then we won't see a new WR on Sunday.

Kipchoge has the most to lose on Sunday, without a doubt.

Renato, how many of your athletes have you coached since their developmental years? What I'm curious about is how you would structure and scaffold a career to get an athlete ready to handle the volume and intensity that elite athletes show at their best.

Especially on this forum, everyone wants to see the big sessions, but nobody asks what training was vital to get to the point of doing the big sessions.

Would you be able to take an American runner like Matt Llano (age 27? I think) who is very typical of the American system (building to 17 mile long runs at Race Pace, Jack Daniels style tempo-run-tempo workouts, things like that.) to train like your Kenyans? Or is he too far developed in in this was, that it would take too long to develop other characteristics of training?

How would or do you scaffold the training of a younger athlete to become the training machine that goes on to become a global elite? How different is that from the American approach to development, where concerns about participation and attrition (not "burning out") in the high school and college years limit an athletes own expectations, but keeps athletes active in the sport?

As far as recovery- note that Eliud logs recovery miles of 6:30-7:00 pace, which is effectively like a 2:37 marathoner going 8-9:00 pace. VERY easy indeed.

Renato, do the female elite of East Africa also follow a similar program with the 40km tempos?

gizmos wrote:

Renato, do the female elite of East Africa also follow a similar program with the 40km tempos?

Yes. Rita Jeptoo did.

Renato Canova wrote:

About the ladies, we have Mary Keitany in 2:18:36 before winning London in 2012 (2:18:37), Rita Jeptoo in 2:19:32 before winning Boston 2014, Florence Kiplagat 2:20:13 before winning Chicago last year.

Another giver of +1 wrote:

gizmos wrote:

Renato, do the female elite of East Africa also follow a similar program with the 40km tempos?

Yes. Rita Jeptoo did.

Renato Canova wrote:

About the ladies, we have Mary Keitany in 2:18:36 before winning London in 2012 (2:18:37), Rita Jeptoo in 2:19:32 before winning Boston 2014, Florence Kiplagat 2:20:13 before winning Chicago last year.

There was a thread just put up where he did a 2:26, 2:13 and 2:15 tempo before Berlin.

What is written is only the last part of Eliud's training (the last 40 days).

Eliud normally uses the roads around Kaptagat. These roads are very hilly, and the difference for 40 km between the place of Nangili (that I described before) and Kaptagat is about 5 minutes.

But the main reason of these times is the rain. This year in Kenya there was a lot of rain, and Kaptagat, which is one of the best places for running when is dry, becomes heavy and Dangerous when muddy.

Again, it's very difficult the interpretation of the training of Kenyan athletes without knowing the places of training and the weather (this is a situation out of the personal control, and is one of the main reason because it's not possible to have PRECISE TRAINING as J.S. says).

And it's also one of the reason that make difficult for Kenyans to win the Championships run in August : July is one of the worst periods in Kenya, normally there is heavy rain lasting two hours, so it's possible to find during the day time for running without rain, but the roads remain very muddy, and it's also easy to have some injury.

For Kenyans, the best period for running marathons, depending on the possibility of preparation, is April (from November the weather is very good, years ago March was a rainy period but now, in spite of what Trump thinks, the weather changed), or the end of October, because at the moment the weather is again good.

âž¡40 days is still a good snapshot of a marathoner's training, I realize that he might be sharpening.

âž¡surely his recovery rate in abnormal, even for elite Kenyans?

âž¡most places have been wetter, but not warmer lately, so neither Trump or his critics are right. âž¡where I live it has been very wet, so I agree it is dangerous, just less than 5 hrs ago I slipped and slide into a park railing/fence post, ouch my ribs are very sore.

âž¡is this the temptation for Kenyan based coaches, to get the anaerobic/sharpening phase done earlier say March & April while the weather is good (for May & June)?

âž¡interestingly on the weather, an Olympian friend of my brother's trained in Morocco for a year back in the mid-1990s, he said to us that the weather is perfect for training everyday. No wind, no rain, soft tracks (not sand). Interesting.

âž¡aren't most Kenyans based in London during June/July?

âž¡most Kenyans did alright in August Championships???

âž¡so let's get you on the record, what do you think of a 20x400m each week all year round?

âž¡I see two threats going forward for Kenyan running (say 20-30 years into the future), my objections about stricter testing controls aside. 1) declining population growth which means less runners. 2) increased prosperity means "sealed" or "paved" roads everywhere instead of the dirt tracks Kenyans train on now (which I know is better for training recovery).

It never happened though did it? Fastest 40 run was 2.13. Very fast on a tough course, but the reporter is making stuff up.

lalaland wrote:

It never happened though did it? Fastest 40 run was 2.13. Very fast on a tough course, but the reporter is making stuff up.

You're looking at the training prior to Berlin. This workout happened prior to sub2. That training snapshot only goes through August.

It`s sooo silly with these threads mr Canova is debating in ..... :) If someone says against him they will be cut off .....especially if someone proves he is wrong........must keep up his reputation.....Great :(

Renato Canova wrote:

But the main reason of these times is the rain.

Again, it's very difficult the interpretation of the training of Kenyan athletes without knowing the places of training and the weather (this is a situation out of the personal control, and is one of the main reason because it's not possible to have PRECISE TRAINING as J.S. says)..

Thats right in some way..... but after rain comes sun. Some of the days between the rain days have been quite good. It dry up very fast when the sun comes. And when the rainy days have been there my runners just adapt to the muddy conditions and I extrapolate some seconds slower or they just run their intervals at the roads instead for the track.

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

[quote]Renato Canova wrote:

âž¡so let's get you on the record, what do you think of a 20x400m each week all year round?

.

What can be interesting to hear about an opinion of a 20 x 400m each week all year around from a person that have never practice it ? I have practice it when I was a runner myself and during 2 years of time being a coach. All my runners have improved with it, so its a strong proof that its very effective to build anaerobic strength.

and it would not have been flat.