I've got a friend that I frequently run and work out with. He can smoke me in the 200, 400, 800 and mile, but then things drastically change. I'll beat him by a good minute in a 5k and then by 2 or more in a 10k.
Our training is identical, but he runs at least 20% more miles than I. Not only that, he's been running longer and he's 20 years younger. Why isn't he faster? Both of us are thin, but he's about 3 or 4 inches taller...is height limiting him? What does the hive mind think?
He's ft and you're st, no?
I like Ike wrote:
I've got a friend that I frequently run and work out with. He can smoke me in the 200, 400, 800 and mile, but then things drastically change. I'll beat him by a good minute in a 5k and then by 2 or more in a 10k.
Our training is identical, but he runs at least 20% more miles than I. Not only that, he's been running longer and he's 20 years younger. Why isn't he faster? Both of us are thin, but he's about 3 or 4 inches taller...is height limiting him? What does the hive mind think?
he's not an LD guy?? he could just be an 8/15 guy. His talents aren't suited for this
Thanks guys...so you think it's just a genetics thing? I keep telling him he should be faster in the longer distances, but he just doesn't have it in him. I'd have thought that his extra weekly miles would help him, but it doesn't seem to do anything for him. We both improve, but are improving at the same amount.
I like Ike wrote:
I've got a friend that I frequently run and work out with. He can smoke me in the 200, 400, 800 and mile, but then things drastically change. I'll beat him by a good minute in a 5k and then by 2 or more in a 10k.
Our training is identical, but he runs at least 20% more miles than I. Not only that, he's been running longer and he's 20 years younger. Why isn't he faster? Both of us are thin, but he's about 3 or 4 inches taller...is height limiting him? What does the hive mind think?
He has a bigger penis.
When you're running more miles, you have to taper to cash in. Doesn't matter what distance, you're going to get less advantage on tired legs.
I run high mileage and others who run about half the mileage can finish with me for a 5 or 10k. But when I've taken 1-2 weeks to taper I end up smoking them by minutes. Simple science brah.
I like Ike wrote:
Thanks guys...so you think it's just a genetics thing?
I'd guess so. Does he keep telling you you should be faster at the shorter distances? :-)
Actually maybe you could make it a personal challenge to beat him in the 8/15 (or even the 200 if you wanted to get a bit mental). If you could do it without messing up your training it would be good for you in the longer distances.
Live to run wrote:
When you're running more miles, you have to taper to cash in. Doesn't matter what distance, you're going to get less advantage on tired legs.
I run high mileage and others who run about half the mileage can finish with me for a 5 or 10k. But when I've taken 1-2 weeks to taper I end up smoking them by minutes. Simple science brah.
Good point.
Post your & his PBs? Am curious now :)
Oh, I try to beat him in the shorter distances, but I'm 50 and he's 30, and I know (and he does too) that I don't have a chance.
We do track workouts and unless we are doing mile repeats, he leaves me in the dust. On a good day I can hang with him if we are doing like a 6x800 workout.
The taper example is interesting...we both slow it down the week before a big 5 or 10k but maybe he needs more rest?
PB's....We are not your typical fast Letsrunners...
PB's
1M
Him - 5.29
Me - 5.44
5k
Him - Something like a 20.55
Me - 19.52
10k
Him - 42.49 I think
Me - 41.03
I've never raced the shorter distances so no official PB's. I know he said he was a 52.xx second 400 guy in H.S.
He has the speed, you have the endurance. Simple.
Fast twitch/slow twitch.
Here's a great example. I have a friend that I got into running. He's a decent swimmer who helped me with training when I briefly tried triathlon, but never ran. He's decently fit (and also 7 years younger than me), and after a few months, he got down to about 21:30-ish fpr 5k and was interested in doing a 30km race with me (Around the Bay).
We did a bunch of long runs and even a HM in preparation, and he had problems fading terribly, even a few months into it. I mean, he would be staggering 10 minute miles at the tail end of 15 milers even after many of them, and shorter "long runs" over the months.
On our last long run (18 miles), he was going through his usual death march during the end stage. I was a 2:45-ish marathoner and the time, and at our pace I was fresh and felt fine. With about 100m to go and in sight of his house, I said, "Okay man, let's race flat out from here" as a sort of joke to make him laugh during his agony. He picked it up and within seconds was substantially ahead of me. I couldn't have reeled him in if my life depended on it.
Hudson,
This is EXACTLY the same thing that happens to him. We'll do 8-10 miles...I'll be running slower than I'd like just so we can hang together. I'll be fine at the end and he'll be huffing and puffing and not able to hold a conversation. I always do the same as you and say okay, lets finish strong and the dude can pull away the last 200- 300 meters like it's nothing.
I like Ike wrote:
Hudson,
This is EXACTLY the same thing that happens to him. We'll do 8-10 miles...I'll be running slower than I'd like just so we can hang together. I'll be fine at the end and he'll be huffing and puffing and not able to hold a conversation. I always do the same as you and say okay, lets finish strong and the dude can pull away the last 200- 300 meters like it's nothing.
Yep - some people just have speed, where others have endurance. I can run 5k in 16:43, HM in about 1:17, and a marathon in 2:45-ish, but cannot get under 29 seconds for 200m, even with some training. My 100m is even worse!
You both don't really know how to train and are hyper-focusing on the wrong things. Problem solved.
It seem like he IS faster than you. That's why he can't beat you over longer distances.
@MAFDonald,
So are you saying he should be training differently than I should? What would you suggest? We've both got a target 5k race coming up in another month and a half. Would should he do differently than I during the remaining time?
We are not hyper-focusing on our relative speed, but I find it curious that a guy that's so much younger and has got so much more natural short distance speed is that much slower than I. You read so much here about just running the mileage, do a tempo and a track workout and things will drop yet it seems to work better for me (with less effort) than for him. I just wanted to explore that.
Maybe his form when running distance is bad so he gets fatigued, tight, bored or whatever on a long run, but he's fundamentally fit and strong so can switch into his natural good speed form any time. That was exactly how I was as a kid - any medium/long distance was a painful grind but I could sprint fresh at the end. Does he overstride? Or maybe he's just a low responder for aerobic/endurance stuff.
Your times are very consistent in Jack Daniels VDOT terms by the way (50-51) and his drop off sharply after the mile (just to confirm what you already know).
I like Ike wrote:
@MAFDonald,
So are you saying he should be training differently than I should? What would you suggest? We've both got a target 5k race coming up in another month and a half. Would should he do differently than I during the remaining time?
We are not hyper-focusing on our relative speed, but I find it curious that a guy that's so much younger and has got so much more natural short distance speed is that much slower than I. You read so much here about just running the mileage, do a tempo and a track workout and things will drop yet it seems to work better for me (with less effort) than for him. I just wanted to explore that.
You are not revealing enough data to remotely pinpoint a trend. Maybe your friend's problem could be a100% mental, maybe it could be 1000 other things. Impossible to tell.
Right now we don't even know how long you've both been training for...are you both off the couch? Do you have any previous fitness from another sport like soccer? If so how many years, etc, etc, hopefully you get the point.
Now, if you trained x method a week and he trained y method a week, continuously for 1 year, 2 years, or longer, then and only then is it worth looking at patterns. Such a small/unknown sample portion of data is not worth hyper-focusing on anything at all.
Sounds like % of fast vs % slow twitch fibers.
You will improve your sprinting if you do speed after exhausting your slow twitch fibers.
He will improve on stamina if he does stamina after exhausting his fast twitch fibers.
My intuition is for you to do 800 pace at the end of your 7-13 mile runs, and for him to do long 1K, 1 mile, 2 mile intervals after doing 300-400 meters speed runs.
I wouldn't want you to do your speed reps at the end of a very long run, I wouldn't want him to do his long reps at the end of very hard speed work. You want your medium runs to be just enough that it's easier for you to train your fast-twitchers. And he wants his fast speed runs to be just fast enough so it's easier for him to train his slow twitchers.
With each of you your tendency is to employ your dominant muscle fiber percentage. You arrange your training so that you fatigue your dominant percentage and then you train your least dominant percentage.