Why have 800m times progressed much slower than any other distance?

The introduction of the long FAST RUN. Renato has mentioned this multiple times.

800m - 1500m Long fast run is not essential to running a fast time.

3K - 5K - 10K - Half & Marathon have progressed significantly since the 80's primarily because the use of long fast run.

wheeeeeeee wrote:

There is a very significant slow-down between 400m and 800m pace is there? I wonder why that might be? Could be something to do with the fact that it is double the distance and the 800m is more aerobic?

any faster.

I'm not saying the slow-down should be as modest as going from the 5k to the 10, just that it should be a smaller than it currently is. It's currently about double the slow-down from the 800 to 1500.

wheeeeeeee wrote:

I also don't think the lack of pacemakers means that Rudisha's time could be any faster.

why not? Drafting, even for a few hundred meters, is a huge advantage.

I think that if a runner like van Niekerk moves up to 800m we will see the first man sub 1.40 at 800m......many people say his stride don`t suits 800....but I disagree with that. And I think he is the best choice because he is used to long repetitions in training.

3hr-marathoner wrote:

wheeeeeeee wrote:

There is a very significant slow-down between 400m and 800m pace is there? I wonder why that might be? Could be something to do with the fact that it is double the distance and the 800m is more aerobic?

any faster.

I'm not saying the slow-down should be as modest as going from the 5k to the 10, just that it should be a smaller than it currently is. It's currently about double the slow-down from the 800 to 1500.

wheeeeeeee wrote:

I also don't think the lack of pacemakers means that Rudisha's time could be any faster.

why not? Drafting, even for a few hundred meters, is a huge advantage.

The reason for the larger slowdown is due to energy systems. The energy requirements for 400m compared to 800m are vastly different to the 800m compared to the 1500m. I believe the 1500m is more similar to the 10k than the 400m is to the 800m in terms of energy systems.

My point about the 100m is that Rudisha, like Bolt, is a once in a generation talent across the whole sport, and pushed the boundaries of what is possible. They are head and shoulders above the rest. Bolt may have gone faster than 9.58 as Rudisha may have gone faster than 1:40.9, but nobody else would get close to either mark and that's because of how good those individuals are. 9.7 is still a super elite time, as is 1:42. Bolt and Rudisha are a different standard.

Both records will survive for generations to come.

I also think the 800m is an event that has seen and still enjoys more diversity than the other events. That's what I meant previously. So more chance of finding talents. The other events tend to be dominated by one nation and other nationalities are put off attempting it. Not so with the 800m.

COACH J.S å ä ö wrote:

I think that if a runner like van Niekerk moves up to 800m we will see the first man sub 1.40 at 800m......many people say his stride don`t suits 800....but I disagree with that. And I think he is the best choice because he is used to long repetitions in training.

Please don't tell me you are a real coach.

There are more men posters on LetsRun. Male events get over analyzed relatively. The women 800m has n't improved much. It's not just Jarmila Kratochvilova. 1976, women Olympic 800m, five women in final sub-1:57. The only other Olympics, 2004 in which that occurred. We must be near our human limits, 800m.

Jerry Maguire wrote:

The introduction of the long FAST RUN. Renato has mentioned this multiple times.

800m - 1500m Long fast run is not essential to running a fast time.

3K - 5K - 10K - Half & Marathon have progressed significantly since the 80's primarily because the use of long fast run.

I get it ;)

The 'long fast run' is one way to put it (erythropoetin) ;)

800ftw. wrote:

The reason for the larger slowdown is due to energy systems. The energy requirements for 400m compared to 800m are vastly different to the 800m compared to the 1500m. I believe the 1500m is more similar to the 10k than the 400m is to the 800m in terms of energy systems.

We're not disagreeing qualitatively about the slow-down, only quantitatively. For the reasons you give, I suspect there will always be a larger gap between 400m WR pace and 800-pace than between any other two adjacent distances. I simply think the gap is probably bigger now than it will be in a few decades.

Also, I'm not sure I agree with your point about diversity in the 800m being a sign it's competitive. I wish it weren't the case, but when the talent pool deepens in athletics, the diversity of backgrounds and body-types tends to be reduced. Genetics matter and the more competitive a sport or event becomes, the stronger the selective pressure is to weed out people without most useful genetic profiles.

And what do you want to say buy that comment? What is your argument against my comment about van Niekerk? And I am actually a real coach....

One of the very best!

COACH J.S

It's a fair point, I don't personally see the evidence for the gap being larger than it should be though. WVN is doing special things in the 400m and that would be widening the gap.

Personally i feel the 1500m is the event where the WR is most in danger of being reduced, and should be. It is the second weakest of the major events in my opinion (after the mile) with many guys capable of 3:27. Maybe a couple capable of 3:26 this year.

As for your last point, I take it on board but I am very much of the opinion that there is no evidence of one 'race' being genetically superior at any event and it is down to culture and training. So we will never agree there lol. There's a reason white men once dominated by running 3:46/7 miles generations ago and it's not because white people's genes got worse. It's because the sport got less popular and there's more money to be made by staying in school.

COACH J.S å ä ö wrote:

And what do you want to say buy that comment? What is your argument against my comment about van Niekerk? And I am actually a real coach....

One of the very best!

COACH J.S

What i want to say is Van Niekerk can run a 9.94 100m and would crumble in an 800m. He is a sprinter.

You don`t understand. Now he is a sprinter and a 400m-sprinter.

He is coached by Mrs Bota in SA since many years back. She have this fantastic sprinter (even long-sprinter ) to do up to 1200m repeats in training....that is anaerob stamina. The only thing he needs to break the 1.40 is to add aerobic work.

COACH J.S

COACH J.S å ä ö wrote:

You don`t understand. Now he is a sprinter and a 400m-sprinter.

He is coached by Mrs Bota in SA since many years back. She have this fantastic sprinter (even long-sprinter ) to do up to 1200m repeats in training....that is anaerob stamina. The only thing he needs to break the 1.40 is to add aerobic work.

COACH J.S

No

As soon as some aspiring chemist comes up with a drug that greatly lengthens anaerobic ability, we'll see all those 44 second 400 guys step up and take the 800 record into the mid 1:30s.

COACH J.S å ä ö wrote:

You don`t understand. Now he is a sprinter and a 400m-sprinter.

He is coached by Mrs Bota in SA since many years back. She have this fantastic sprinter (even long-sprinter ) to do up to 1200m repeats in training....that is anaerob stamina. The only thing he needs to break the 1.40 is to add aerobic work.

COACH J.S

Clyde Hart regularly had his guys running long repeats, 30 minute fartlek runs, and 15 minute hard aerobic efforts during the months leading up to indoor season. Nobody thought Wariner or Johnson would be an elite half miler (remember, Wariner tried and went 1:53--maybe he could've run 1:48 in his prime? 1:47?). WVN is certainly more speed-oriented than Wariner and arguably more speed-oriented than Johnson. Adding aerobic work won't just turn a 200/400 guy into an elite half miler.

If WVN ran in the 1:44s he'd have by far the best range of any male track athlete in history. Claiming aerobic work could push him sub 1:40 is just bonkers.

COACH J.S å ä ö wrote:

You don`t understand. Now he is a sprinter and a 400m-sprinter.

He is coached by Mrs Bota in SA since many years back. She have this fantastic sprinter (even long-sprinter ) to do up to 1200m repeats in training....that is anaerob stamina. The only thing he needs to break the 1.40 is to add aerobic work.

COACH J.S

The only thing VN needs to do to break 1:40 is race an 800.

800ftw. wrote:

COACH J.S å ä ö wrote:

You don`t understand. Now he is a sprinter and a 400m-sprinter.

He is coached by Mrs Bota in SA since many years back. She have this fantastic sprinter (even long-sprinter ) to do up to 1200m repeats in training....that is anaerob stamina. The only thing he needs to break the 1.40 is to add aerobic work.

COACH J.S

No

Just to elaborate, you think that because WVN is physically capable of running 1200m.in training he has what it takes to be an 800m runner?

You are sorely mistaken. WVN is a pure sprinter. The purest sprint type 400m runner we have ever seen in fact. The least capable of 800m running perhaps next to Johnson.

It would be a miracle to see him break 1:50.

Maybe we're not that far apart of this issue. I didn't mean body-types just as a PC way of saying race. I literally mean that in a lot of ways world class marathoners, for example, nowadays share a similar build in a way that 800 guys don't. Sure race is part of that but in a lot of more important ways someone like Seb Coe was built more like Wilson Kipketer than he was like Nick Symmonds or Makhloufi. You just don't see that range of body types in sub 2:04 marathoners.

800ftw. wrote:

COACH J.S å ä ö wrote:

I think that if a runner like van Niekerk moves up to 800m we will see the first man sub 1.40 at 800m......many people say his stride don`t suits 800....but I disagree with that. And I think he is the best choice because he is used to long repetitions in training.

Please don't tell me you are a real coach.

He´s a fcking clown polluting almost every thread.