Who's fault -- Sagan, Cavendish or the Tour?

Watching the slow motion you will see that Cav's wheels slides towards Sagan as he is going down. Then the elbow comes up, likely as a defensive measure in case he was knocked down into the wall as well.

"maybe" as a defensive measure.

real road racer wrote:

actual cyclist wrote:

Sagan full-on shoulder-checked Cav. Out and out blatant, rubbish move. Adios, Sago!

Cav was already on his way into the wall, or at least into a red thing on the wall. Please watch the slo-motion video replay that was provided. Cav chose a racing line of doom. His fall was self-inflicted.

No, he clearly wasn't. Sago was moving towards the wall and taking Cav with him. Cav held the line, Sagan bumped him, then Cav leaned in and Sagan full on shoulder-checked him.

That's the facts, Jack. And that's why he and Cav aren't racing tomorrow.

Cavendish deserves that crash after the shit he pulled at the 2016 olympics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=869ytxoJsF8

Gotta bee wrote:

As an 100% unbiased person, I think this is after watching videos from many different angles about 20 times, Sagan is at fault. Clearly cuts Cav off from what I see, and after already making contact with him swings an elbow while he's already falling so that if he wasn't he would knock him off balance AT LEAST if not over.

Idk what warents a DQ in this sport since I never watch so no opinion on that, just don't see how people are actually excusing Sagan here....

Agree. People on this forum see what they want to see. Reality and facts don't come into play. That second elbow was just for good measure, I guess.

sagan fan wrote:

cav knew he was crashing wrote:

Cav was already on his way down before the elbow came out.

I agree, the elbow made no contact, but why did it come out? It seems unlikely it was being used to keep from falling over to the left.

Sagan was probably well aware that Cav was there, but he couldn't know he was going down. Was the elbow out there to make sure he couldn't pass just in case he stayed upright?

I mean, I wanna believe, but it looks pretty bad.

Clearly you don't bike. Cavendish hit Sagan causing him to go off balance and tilt towards the barriers. Sagan then clearly flicks his elbow out towards the barrier so that his main body and bike regains vertical balance. This is basic bike handling and even all the sprinters are saying throwing Sagan out is wrong.

justthefacts wrote:

Gotta bee wrote:

As an 100% unbiased person, I think this is after watching videos from many different angles about 20 times, Sagan is at fault. Clearly cuts Cav off from what I see, and after already making contact with him swings an elbow while he's already falling so that if he wasn't he would knock him off balance AT LEAST if not over.

Idk what warents a DQ in this sport since I never watch so no opinion on that, just don't see how people are actually excusing Sagan here....

Agree. People on this forum see what they want to see. Reality and facts don't come into play. That second elbow was just for good measure, I guess.

So maybe Cav was gonna crash already? Sagan shouldn't have cut him off or threw an elbow, don't want people to think you're in the wrong don't act like you are, pretty simple...

Real Cyclist wrote:

Clearly you don't bike. Cavendish hit Sagan causing him to go off balance and tilt towards the barriers. Sagan then clearly flicks his elbow out towards the barrier so that his main body and bike regains vertical balance. This is basic bike handling and even all the sprinters are saying throwing Sagan out is wrong.

Cavendish was between Sagan and the barrier. How did he manage to knock Sagan towards the barrier? The physics of that just don't make any sense.

Eye for an eye wrote:

Cavendish deserves that crash after the shit he pulled at the 2016 olympics:

Remember this move from 2013?

Probably caught him with a motor afterward, and figured this was a good cover story.

Somebody failed physics in HS. Seriously bro? you fall left, you counterweight by adding weight TO YOUR RIGHT side. How do you do that? by extending any weighted object you have, such as an arm, leg, even leaning your head (though the head won't do much). Please retake physics and then you may return to this thread.

sagan fan wrote:

All that may well be true, but what bothers me most is Sagan's right elbow flying out like that. Assuming Cav made contact with him, Sagan should have been pushed off-balance over to his left side. If you are falling left, you don't stick out your right elbow to try to regain balance, you throw out your left elbow. He did just the opposite.

sagan fan wrote:

Real Cyclist wrote:

Clearly you don't bike. Cavendish hit Sagan causing him to go off balance and tilt towards the barriers. Sagan then clearly flicks his elbow out towards the barrier so that his main body and bike regains vertical balance. This is basic bike handling and even all the sprinters are saying throwing Sagan out is wrong.

Cavendish was between Sagan and the barrier. How did he manage to knock Sagan towards the barrier? The physics of that just don't make any sense.

You've never been bumped at the legs/butt before in a race? I have. Sends your lower half going in the opposite direction of your torso unless you flick a knee or elbow.

.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DD66OH2VwAEUn05.jpg

Sean Kelly groupie wrote:

Eye for an eye wrote:

Cavendish deserves that crash after the shit he pulled at the 2016 olympics:

Remember this move from 2013?

https://twitter.com/LowriBuckley/status/882296223037878273

The same type of move that Cavenish tried--head butt with shoulder--except his wheels slipped this time, and he crashed rather than the person he was trying to take down.

sagan fan wrote:

Cavendish was between Sagan and the barrier. How did he manage to knock Sagan towards the barrier? The physics of that just don't make any sense.

Sagan was leaning towards the barriers as Cav was leaning on him. Once Cav goes down Sagan is leaning towards the barriers so he goes towards the barriers a little before he can correct himself.

And a couple of pages back someone was claiming that all cyclists in front have the right to do anything and it's always the guy in back's fault. That's so blatantly wrong in cycling. The rider in front can be DQed or relegated if he deviates from his line (it has to usually be pretty obvious) or obviously causes the rear rider to crash by squishing them into the barriers. To me this was not that situation. Cav did not have a clear lane to move up next to the barriers. And Sagan was moving a bit laterally as the guys around him were. Cav was never level with Sagan and to me this is mostly on Cav. It's a shame the ruled the way they did. I get relegating Sagan for the stage, but the full DQ from the tour seems very harsh.

voice of reason. wrote:

Somebody failed physics in HS. Seriously bro? you fall left, you counterweight by adding weight TO YOUR RIGHT side. How do you do that? by extending any weighted object you have, such as an arm, leg, even leaning your head (though the head won't do much). Please retake physics and then you may return to this thread.

Newton's Third Law - for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Sagan's body begins to lean left due to contact with Cavendish. If the right elbow swings out at that moment, the reaction to that motion forces his body to lean further to the left. It's just elementary physics.

You can try this yourself - stand on your left leg, lean to the left, and shoot your right arm out. Your body will move further to the left.

To get an even better feel for these mechanics, grab some weight in you right hand, like a large water bottle. With enough weight moving to your right, you will have to fight to keep from falling left.

Eventually, the shift in your center of gravity will force you back to the right, but only if you managed to stay upright after the reaction to the initial arm motion.

SEDave wrote:

Sagan was leaning towards the barriers as Cav was leaning on him. Once Cav goes down Sagan is leaning towards the barriers so he goes towards the barriers a little before he can correct himself.

Sorry, I am not buying this. From the videos, Sagan does not appear to be leaning into the barrier in any way.

What you seem to be suggesting is that Sagan was somehow supported by Cavendish on his right. When Sagan lost this "support" after Cavendish fell down, he veered towards the barrier. That's just ridiculous.

Even Andre Greipel has apologized for initially saying Sagan caused the crash, and you still don't believe basic physics? What's kind of cyclist are you? A Cat 6?

Real Cyclist wrote:

Even Andre Greipel has apologized for initially saying Sagan caused the crash, and you still don't believe basic physics? What's kind of cyclist are you? A Cat 6?

I am not saying Sagan caused the crash. I am questioning that right elbow flick. It just didn't look right in that situation.