Who's fault -- Sagan, Cavendish or the Tour?

this is just wrong wrote:

It was a bad decision used to justify a terrible finish set-up which is meant to induce crashes.

How was the finish set-up terrible. The road was not particularly narrow and the last turn (not a sharp one) was some ~700 metres from the finish.

Though if you mean that all stages should finish with a HC climb, I would be fine with that. Flat stages are boring.

Lazt wrote:

not in the gap wrote:

In the case of a car accident it is always the person behind who is at fault. Cav would be liable. Sagan would not. Cav was never ahead of Sagan to make it Sagan's error.

So, total Cav's fault.

Not so with sprinting cyclists. It's about holding the line. Sagan was most at fault. Disappointed to see him DQd, though.

You are wrong. There is no way for the person ahead to know what the person behind intends to do. The person behind is always at fault. Cav is at fault.

jhfgi04 wrote:

this is just wrong wrote:

It was a bad decision used to justify a terrible finish set-up which is meant to induce crashes.

How was the finish set-up terrible. The road was not particularly narrow and the last turn (not a sharp one) was some ~700 metres from the finish.

Though if you mean that all stages should finish with a HC climb, I would be fine with that. Flat stages are boring.

The problem was with the pack flocking like birds and on each other's wheels. The leader sets the line, and is usually trying to shake people off by swinging right or left. Cav should have looked for another line because it was obvious that the pack was moving toward the wall to their right-hand side. Other rides made adjustments. Cav did not; he tried to plow through.

Listening to Lance's podcast. Lance disagrees with Sagan getting tossed.

jhfgi04 wrote:

this is just wrong wrote:

It was a bad decision used to justify a terrible finish set-up which is meant to induce crashes.

How was the finish set-up terrible. The road was not particularly narrow and the last turn (not a sharp one) was some ~700 metres from the finish.

Though if you mean that all stages should finish with a HC climb, I would be fine with that. Flat stages are boring.

In the last 2.5km there were three tight hard corners, one through a round about and it narrowed toward the end. The crash with Sagan was the second crash toward the finish, there had already been another crash shortly before. If it wasn't designed to induce crashes, it sure appeared that way.

I agree though, it was a dead boring stage where the only thing interesting was the always going to be the sprint finish, which is why they made the finish the way they did.

On another note - go back to 2013 and watch Cavindish take out Veelers with his shoulder in a sprint finish. Oddly, Cavindish was not disqualified even though the hit to Veelers was clear as day.

I am not supporting any side here - just general interest.

Sorry, you're wrong and the TDF officials are right. Look at the video here. Sagan boxed out Cav who would have passed him through a proper gap.

This reply tweet correctly describes it:

https://twitter.com/meandmycow/status/882314174096973824

MarathonMind wrote:

Sorry, you're wrong and the TDF officials are right. Look at the video here. Sagan boxed out Cav who would have passed him through a proper gap.

This reply tweet correctly describes it:

https://twitter.com/meandmycow/status/882314174096973824

No, you are wrong and the officials are wrong. There is no way a person in front knows what the person behind is going to do. Cav was going to knock Sagan into the other riders and race to the win.

Races would be a farce if every rider who was behind could claim they lost a race because a rider ahead of them refused to allowed them a free path. This is true for bike, running, car, and any race. Person in front always has the right-of-way.

three tight turns wrote:

In the last 2.5km there were three tight hard corners, one through a round about and it narrowed toward the end. The crash with Sagan was the second crash toward the finish, there had already been another crash shortly before. If it wasn't designed to induce crashes, it sure appeared that way.

I agree though, it was a dead boring stage where the only thing interesting was the always going to be the sprint finish, which is why they made the finish the way they did.

On another note - go back to 2013 and watch Cavindish take out Veelers with his shoulder in a sprint finish. Oddly, Cavindish was not disqualified even though the hit to Veelers was clear as day.

I am not supporting any side here - just general interest.

Yes, between 3k and 1k to go it the route was narrow and twisty, but I don't think the route design had anything to do with Cavendish crash. With the earlier crash, maybe, but that crash didn't end up having much effect anyway.

Full head/shoulder contact before the elbow ever comes out. Sagan playing defense. Jury is off its rocker. pic.twitter.com/wPzsVjgtj6

— Caley Fretz (@CaleyFretz) July 4, 2017

Expulsion seems excessive by any measure; no mention of red advertising padding jutting out of barriers that made Cav's crash much worse

— Andrew Hood (@EuroHoody) July 4, 2017

DQ is harsh for Sagan. Cavendish has avoided DQ for worse in the past. #TDF2017

— Felix Lowe (@saddleblaze) July 4, 2017

I don't know what to make of the Sagan DQ. Didn't look like he made much contact. Quite often see riders leaning into each other. #TDF2017

— Ian Cookson (@ipcookson) July 4, 2017

http://lebuzz.eurosport.co.uk/viral/reaction-peter-sagan-disqualified-tour-de-france-jury-off-rocker-want-french-sprinter-win-green-29702/

Debate will continue to rage about whether it was the correct decision or not… but amid all the discussion came a particularly far-fetched theory: that the Tour commissaires disqualified Sagan to make it easy for a French rider to win the green jersey.

Not in the gap wrote:

MarathonMind wrote:

Sorry, you're wrong and the TDF officials are right. Look at the video here. Sagan boxed out Cav who would have passed him through a proper gap.

This reply tweet correctly describes it:

https://twitter.com/meandmycow/status/882314174096973824

No, you are wrong and the officials are wrong. There is no way a person in front knows what the person behind is going to do. Cav was going to knock Sagan into the other riders and race to the win.

Races would be a farce if every rider who was behind could claim they lost a race because a rider ahead of them refused to allowed them a free path. This is true for bike, running, car, and any race. Person in front always has the right-of-way.

I think you are trolling. If he didn't know he was then then he would not have thrown an elbow.

mypredictor wrote:

You saw Sagan's elbow, you saw Cav shoot for a small space, and you saw the Tour schedule a inevitable sprint finish stage on a narrow, winding road. Where should blame primarily be placed?

Forgive my naivety on this, but I don't see what's winding or really that narrow about the finish of that stage. Just one turn and then a pretty straight shot with what looked like plenty of distance and space for the final sprint. The line of cyclists just seemed to stay narrow and drift to the right rather than spread out across the road, but it wasn't like there was not plenty of space to pass on the left if someone wanted to get out from the pack.

klhgfdsa wrote:

So glad running does not involve all the expensive token equipment and broken bones that plague cycling.

No kidding.... cycling looks fun except every cyclist I know gets in a serious crash before long

Here's the overhead. Sagan def. knew Cav was there, hence the elbow.

https://twitter.com/benroome/status/882270765403516929

Actually changed my mind, based on the this, not Sagan's thought when slowed down.

MarathonMind wrote:

Here's the overhead. Sagan def. knew Cav was there, hence the elbow.

https://twitter.com/benroome/status/882270765403516929

So, Sagan is supposed to know what Cav will do. But Cav get away by not knowing Sagan would do--which is take the line in front of him and race to the finish. Cav impeded Sagan by trying to claim the path Sagan had first rights to.

this is just wrong wrote:

Did you even watch the video? The whole group is moving across the road,

Yup. An experience rider like Cav knows he has to account for the snaking path the lead pack makes as it closes on the finish line. Shame on Cav for not adjusting and going to the left where he had a clearer path to race as he liked.

Sagan got DQ'd for cutting off Cavendish. He had plenty of room on the left to avoid the collision as the overhead shots clearly show. It's really not that hard to understand which is why it was the determination made by the TDF.

Rato. wrote:

https://streamable.com/j7gqb

Actually changed my mind, based on the this, not Sagan's thought when slowed down.

Exactly. Cav bumped into Sagan and started falling by himself. Then, while Cav is already falling/screwed, Sagan reflexively lifts his elbow to catch his balance and doesn't impede or touch the already crashing Cav.