Does running on cement increase risk of injury

Uneven Steven wrote:

What third world country do you live in with such poor sidewalks? Detroit?

Nope. Chicago, and I used to live in New York. There are a lot of imperfections with sidewalks compared to the roads. Poor sidewalks have nothing to do with monetary or financial status. Sidewalks in neighborhoods take a beaten, especially in the burbs. Now, in the downtown area, the sidewalks will be close to perfect, but not so much in other areas.

I wish I had more options to choose from. The closest paved road to me is 5 miles away, so it's gravel or nothing. It would be nice to do some runs on pavement so my legs don't get destroyed in road races...

Ho Hum wrote:

545 wrote:

Short answer - yes.

Longer answer - asphalt and wooded paths are best. Asphalt will absorb at least some of the impact. Cement absorbs 0%

Nothing absorbs 0%.

I think it's basically irrelevant, since your body automatically adapts to the surface you're running on. Personally, I have a much higher rate of injury (mostly twisted ankles) on grass and trail than concrete.

That makes sense because it is uneven terrain, and the surface is really choppy. The key is to run slow. Grass running builds up the feet ,ankles, achilles and hips, because certain muscles get used that are not normally used. But it can be jarring if done fast, because even though the impact is soft, there is a lot of shifting upon impact due to the surface being uneven

one model wrote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/19/health/nutrition/19best.html

I agree with everything in that article. ...Also, when running on grass, the runner has to change how his foot strikes the ground. High forefoot striking is going to lead to a lot of twisted ankles because there is no weight being applied to keep the foot down. A midfoot strike is needed so the foot can maintain balance, and stay on the surface.

That is how kenyans do it, and they run slow on grass.

I feel strong as hell after a nice slow run on grass. ....the fatigue is a nice fatigue.

So trail runners supposed to be constantly injured.

Let's throw out sprained ankles and other similar injuries caused by running on grass or uneven surfaces.

Then what do you have?

I think it would be somewhat foolish to say that dirt/grass/asphalt/cement WOULD NOT be the order you would go IF staying injury free was your only criteria.

It seems obvious that if you want to compete on cement, you had better do some of your training there and the same is true of the rest of the surfaces.

Shoes are a factor.

Speed and running style is a factor.

My favorite training site for long runs is asphalt. It always has been but I never had much opportunity to run long in Eldoret, Kenya!

The track is the best place to do faster stuff if for one reason alone... Automobiles!

Did I miss anything?

scorpion_runner wrote:

Uneven Steven wrote:

What third world country do you live in with such poor sidewalks? Detroit?

Nope. Chicago, and I used to live in New York. There are a lot of imperfections with sidewalks compared to the roads. Poor sidewalks have nothing to do with monetary or financial status. Sidewalks in neighborhoods take a beaten, especially in the burbs. Now, in the downtown area, the sidewalks will be close to perfect, but not so much in other areas.

Here in Maine, all sidewalks are asphalt. It's nice for running.

Not a doctor wrote:

This is mostly true. The basic laws of physics mean that no matter what surface you run on the same amount of force is going into your legs. Force doesn't just magically disappear because you are running on a soft surface. The force you push into the ground will be equal to the force that goes back into your leg. So really running surface has nothing to do with it.

So then why don't high jumpers just land on a concrete mat? By your flawed logic a soft surface shouldn't matter, right?

Obviously it's not bad if you use very cushioned shoes, HOKA etc.

dumparoo wrote:

Not a doctor wrote:

This is mostly true. The basic laws of physics mean that no matter what surface you run on the same amount of force is going into your legs. Force doesn't just magically disappear because you are running on a soft surface. The force you push into the ground will be equal to the force that goes back into your leg. So really running surface has nothing to do with it.

So then why don't high jumpers just land on a concrete mat? By your flawed logic a soft surface shouldn't matter, right?

Because the mattress makes the force impact time longer. Soft shoes are not quite the same because they can't make that time as long as a mattress. Soft shoes soften the impact to feet but they can actually make the impact harder in some other parts of the body than running without shoes. That is because they can change the runner's stride.

f33d wrote:

Because the mattress makes the force impact time longer. Soft shoes are not quite the same because they can't make that time as long as a mattress. Soft shoes soften the impact to feet but they can actually make the impact harder in some other parts of the body than running without shoes. That is because they can change the runner's stride.

This can also apply if you compare harder and softer surfaces by running barefoot.

Not a doctor wrote:

This is mostly true. The basic laws of physics mean that no matter what surface you run on the same amount of force is going into your legs. Force doesn't just magically disappear because you are running on a soft surface. The force you push into the ground will be equal to the force that goes back into your leg. So really running surface has nothing to do with it.

I don't think that science is accurate. Force can be dissipated. If you jumped from a 10 meter platform do you think it would be the same force your body is receiving if you landed on concrete vs one of those big inflatable air bags that stunt jumpers use?

If you are shoved into a brick wall vs a highly padded wall it's obviously not the same.

They run on grass or dirt because that is what they are used to and that is what they are told to do.Kenyans don't think. They just do what they are told. Run at 6am for 40 minutes....."Ok." Run in the park for your runs "Ok."Similar to American XC doing what their coaches tell them.It's not evidence that it causes less injuries, it's evidence that Kenyans are doing what their coaches tell them.

Cement wrote:

https://youtu.be/VqOoC2UDzBY

I noticed most elites while running in these parks before a marathon, choose to run on the grass rather than on the cement trail. Is this an evidence that for people who train with quality high speed workouts it is better to avoid as much as possible running on roads and cements trails?

John Utah wrote:

I don't think that science is accurate. Force can be dissipated. If you jumped from a 10 meter platform do you think it would be the same force your body is receiving if you landed on concrete vs one of those big inflatable air bags that stunt jumpers use?

If you are shoved into a brick wall vs a highly padded wall it's obviously not the same.

It isn't accurate. I also used wrong term there in my posts. The right term to use in physics is impulse:

(physics)

Impulse is the same, not force.

f33d wrote:

John Utah wrote:

I don't think that science is accurate. Force can be dissipated. If you jumped from a 10 meter platform do you think it would be the same force your body is receiving if you landed on concrete vs one of those big inflatable air bags that stunt jumpers use?

If you are shoved into a brick wall vs a highly padded wall it's obviously not the same.

It isn't accurate. I also used wrong term there in my posts. The right term to use in physics is impulse:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impulse_

(physics)

Impulse is the same, not force.

The words we look for are terms like Kinematics( study of geometry of motion) and impact force.

There have been some pretty good studies on the topic.

Yes your legs/body adapt to the surface by the adjustment of your legs stiffness acting as a shock absorber.

Footwear's goal is to decrease the impact force and control pronation.

A softer surface does reduce impact, an irregular soft surface creates another set of issues as legs work very hard to balance. A smooth gravel road is ideal as is a smooth dirt path as is a soft track surface, all reducing impact without over activating the legs to balance. Grass,sand although very soft create another set of issues.

Bottom line a shoe with adequate cushioning and pronation help will work on any surface, optimal would be a smooth non cement or pavement for a portion of your training. Running on hard surfaces does add an element of conditioning and balance to leg strength but not as your primary surface to train on.

dumparoo wrote:

So then why don't high jumpers just land on a concrete mat? By your flawed logic a soft surface shouldn't matter, right?

Haha, exactly. A soft surface, like grass, absorbs the force of you landing much more than tarmac or concrete. Also with grass you will have a longer ground contact time, so the force is spread over a longer time and more is absorbed by the ground. In a way it's harder to run on grass as the ground returns virtually nothing, but it's easier on the joints.

I have read one study where softer shoes reduced maximal impact force to lower feet but increased forces a little bit in the upper parts of legs due to different stride. I think a smooth soft surface can maybe be considered equivalent of running with soft non-rigid shoes on harder surface.

Well said wrote:

dumparoo wrote:

So then why don't high jumpers just land on a concrete mat? By your flawed logic a soft surface shouldn't matter, right?

Haha, exactly. A soft surface, like grass, absorbs the force of you landing much more than tarmac or concrete. Also with grass you will have a longer ground contact time, so the force is spread over a longer time and more is absorbed by the ground. In a way it's harder to run on grass as the ground returns virtually nothing, but it's easier on the joints.

You might hit the stride harder because of the softer ground. Lower feet will take a softer impact but not necessarily the upper joints of your legs. Pronation reduces the forces to upper joints.