Western State Runners

whos crying?? It seems to me that everyone but Western is crying!! The kiwis arent even at the top of the performance lists!! Maybe 21 yr old american Scott Nagelkerke has better shoes than the rest of us or more money. Maybe the ncaa should check into that and issue him shittier shoes. Would that make it fair??? Does anyone know if there are age groups in the Olympics?????????? Quit your crying and train harder.

Your're crying like a little baby right now Jefferson.

Your points are totally irrelevant. Age, maturity and experience are an uncontrolable factor that favor the older athlete.

These runners are too old to be competing against athletes that are 8-10 years younger than them. Period.

An athlete should have 5 years after they graduate highschool to train their ass off and become an NCAA All American. These damned imports graduate high school then train their ass off for 4-7 years.... then come to the US and enter the NCAA. Its an unfair advantage for NCAA D2. The rules should be uniform across all divisions so that the best runners go D1 if that is the case. If not, make an age limit for all NCAA and send them to the NAIA.

You're right, it doesnt have anything to do with shoes..... assy.

Hey Budnuts

Life isn't fair. These guys didn't make the rules. The rules are the rules. Until the NCAA changes them we will always be running against someone older and faster. But don't criticize them just because they follow the rules.

I don't really think it's like a bunch of guys sit around and make these type of plans that far in advance in life. It's probably more of a matter that they are taking a great opportunity when it's on the table. With the Western guys, most of their money comes from academics. The divisions ARE different because of their rules and philosophies. You can find a ton of stories about guys who just flat out blew it when they were 18 and 19 and DII and III opened up doors that were long since closed in DI. Everyone who wants an opportunity to compete collegiately should get one. Ask a guy like Nick Cordes and he'll probably tell you that having these guys to run against upped the standard for him and helped to make him a better runner. If guys like that aren't complaining, I'm wondering why everyone else is. It's not taking money away from Americans. Instead of jumping DII coaches about giving scholarship $$ to foreign athletes, why don't we get on the hs coaches who tell kids not to run more than 40 miles a week so they won't burn out? Hell, why don't we just get on some of the kids themselves, many of which don't work 1/2 as hard as the guys at Western do? I'm not saying that all American kids are lazy, but a great many of them are. Everyone is trying to do the least amount of work to get better. You see it every time a hs team has some success. The other coaches whisper crap about overtraining and burnout-as if it's a crime to outwork you opponent. I seem to remember reading stuff about Pre doing 3 a days during the summer after graduation. Most American kids want to go out and LESS mileage during that summer and then blame the college coach for putting it on their sorry butts too much. My apologies to the many kids who DO train their asses off-my hat is off to them because they are definitely in the minority! Quit crying about having competition and do something about it. This is NOT the first year a foreign athlete has competed in the American collegiate system. If you have a desire to compete at the next level then PREPARE FOR IT. Your foreign counterparts sure as hell are!!!!!!

TO THE LITTLE A-HOLE WHO CHARACTERIZED COACH V AS A NAZI: SCREW YOU PUNK, HE IS ONE OF THE BEST COACHES IN THE US. The man is fair, knowledgable, inspirational, and will help anyone who asks. You wouldn't last a week in Gunny!

I agree with DIII coach. Western has had a strong foreign component to their team through the years and some of these were older athletes.... BUT... Check their roster these days and you'll see only a few, and most of their kids ARE young and American... Not that it really matters anyhow. People who bag on their program are surely jealous DI athletes who were fast in HS and are running slower times than half the Western kids. From what I know, most of the Western runners really weren't that fast in HS. Check their website and see where they train... long runs etc... at 7500-10k ft. and you'll start to understand why they are as fast and tough as they are.... And I've got no allegiance to their program other than having to coach against their teams each year. Hard work is hard work and it makes you fast whether you're from the US or New Zealand.

well put

Well put D 3 Coach.

Wasn't there a H.S. kid from WA in the early 60's running 200+ a week and kicking some serious international ass? I think he still holds the schoolboy 5K record, set in '64 maybe?

Cmon...I ran for a DIII school, and we were pretty much resigned to the fact that whomever showed up was fair game. We didn't give a crap if you were 20 or 40. That's why we were at a DIII school. DII can't be any different. Sure, DII is better than DIII, but really, if you are that good, you'd be at a DI program, or you'd be so good (Karl Parayana et all) that no one of an advanced age would be kicking your ass.....I think it's pretty cool than some old cats can still run in college if they got a late start...there was some dude (Bob Stack) who ran for Conn College a few years back who was mad old.....

I try to put myself back in college kids shoes about this issue. Would it bother me to have to run against 30 year olds?

I know right before the NCAA rule change a 29 year old New Zealander named Crowe won a NCAA title in a race where I took 4th. His teammate who was a foreigner also took second. I don't remember it bugging me too much but it was a long time ago, it might have.

You have to look at the big picture. Is it fair? Probably not. There is a valid point concerning the extra years of training advantage against a 20 year old whose probably just started to really develop. It would be like high schoolers against college seniors. And yeah some of these guys will bump people off of NCAA provisional lists and prevent some from ever getting to nationals.

But they do raise the levels and add quality. ANd the bottom line is when the standards are higher more people run faster.

So if you're complaining I guess you just have to ask what your main goal in running is. Running as fast as you can or a piece of paper saying you were an all-american or national qualifier.

former DII coach wrote:

If you want to run against people who are the same age go DI, if not then quit bitching. Those foreign athletes aren't standing at your door keeping you from training hard enough to beat them!

Your first sentence is right on. Your second is well-intentioned but questionable as it implies that a physically less mature athlete can overcome the strength of an equally talented older athlete simply by training harder, as if Bob Kennedy could have reached 12:58 as a 19-year-old given enough work. You might as well tell the clean runners bitching about EPO users to shut up and just train harder to make up the difference.

Like I said, Life isn't fair. The NCAA rules are the rules. Don't bitch about the people that play by the rules. Anyway I know I run faster because of older runners.

Fredo, I agree with a lot of what you said-though i know Eddie Crowe, who won and NCAA title (1500m?) he actually finished runing at just 26 not 29. He was an outstanding junior holding the New Zealand Junior 1500m record for years (3.41 at 18).

BK may be a bad example to back your point because it has been well publicized here in Ohio that he ran incredibly low mileage. Had he run the mileage that his Kenyan counterparts did at that age, he might well have run much faster-afterall he did go 4:05 on about 30 per week or so.

I don't think it's as much a chronological issue as much as it's a "running age" issue.

i believe this gentleman could be talking about one dean crowe, not eddie.dean was a very good 5000m runner from new zealand in the mid 80's and he went to boston university, but i am not sure he was 29 when he won his ncaa title.anyway is this the crowe you were talking about.

thanks rod

Fredo, I hope you made your point because this is what I meant to say.

I'm not criticizing their team, if anything I am criticizing the NCAA.

you don't race with age, you race with balls. why don't you bitches grow some

Is Marmite made from Marmots?

I agree with Fredo's post. I run in RMAC and the way I see it, racing against 30 year olds means three things. 1) It means that Im not going to place as high as I would in a shitty confrence. 2) It means Im going to have tough competition to pull me through a PR. 3) It means that I am going to bust my ass this summer so I can compete with Western in cross. Personally Ild rather run a big PR and get 20th at confrence than run a mediocre race and get 10th. This is just my opinion but I figure racing the McRae bros makes me a better runner and thats what matters. Being in Western and Adams confrence shouldnt I be the one bitching???