Important moments and concepts in the history and development of Intermittent training

thread revival, thread revival.

Hey Everybody,

This thread is really great. Thanks to everyone that contributed.

I have a quick question though. I am 16 and am currently running around 18:0x for 5000m. Most of my training up do now (been running for around a year) has been intervals, totaling around 20-25 kilometers per week (12-14 miles).

I've been doing workouts like the following. 2 workouts per week with one more 15-20 minute jog on sunday for recovery purposes:

10x400m with 1-2 minutes rest, targetting 1:15-1:20.

30 minutes continious running on a 300m downhill, going fast downhilll (around 51-53 seconds) and jog back up to

the top for recovery.

400-600-800-1000-1600-1000-800-600-400 pyramids (building up so that the 1000 is the fastest, the 1600 is pretty easy, then building up again so that the last 400 is the fastest. Rest until HR drops to 130-140 bpm.

My main goal is to try to to run 16:00-16:15 for 5000m by december.

From what I read in this thread training plan is really like aerobic running. I don't have a long run, and most of my aerobic running is usually done in the warmup (I like long warmups of 4-5 kilometers).

Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I can reach my goal (if it is possible).

Thank you

John Gomes

Edit to my above post:

My training plan is LACKING aerobic running.

John Gomes

bump

John,

Your question is an easy one (you don't even need the help of the expert coaches like Renato or Antonio at this stage).

RUN MORE. I am not a proponent of high mileage or anything, but ANY COACH on the planet will tell you that 12-15 miles a week is pretty low, and that to improve you should gradually increase your # of runs per week, and then the mileage of those runs and get your total mileage up. Don't do it drastically, because staying healthy is more important than anything really (if you are not healthy, you can't run). But if you want to improve, you need to do more than 12-15 miles a week.

Your two interval/intermittent training sessions are pretty good. Just add some more days of easy/moderate paced steady running (Sunday alone at 15 minutes is not enough).

There are all sort of other changes/ideas you could experiment with later on, but for now......just RUN MORE. Doesn't need to be fast, doesn't need to be a lot more, but just get out there a few more days a week for some 30-45 minute runs (if you can handle them). That change/addition alone will help you improve if you continue with your interval stuff also. In the early/pre season, don't do your interval sessions too hard. Make sure you are feeling comfortable throughout.

(don't you have a high school coach? If so, I assume you will have practice every day, and that will automatically increase your weekly mileage).

John Gomes

Lance-a-lot gives you good advise. Thinking that you are a teenager you need to build your running condition by aerobic runs. In your age aerobic runs is the base of all future progress and more specificity.

I think that´s not really important the design of what you, what´s really important is:

1/what´s the concept, the main idea that´s implicit in your training sessions.

1/that your training sessions fits IN you completly

Now, i have one question for you John : what´s the training reason why you do 300m downhill ?

One more comment. Of course that with your age - for me to be able to train you properly the e-mail that´s not enough, i would need the direct presence of you face to face with me in most of your workouts to observe you and give you direct instructions, Otherwise, if your post is a serious one and your story is a serious onme a true one, if you would live near me, and you have no coach in your school or no one to help you, i would accept to coach you for free, really free, but i´ve learn that in your case i´m no able to coach you by internet.

John:

Do more distance work. Your development using only intervals/reps at race pace or faster will leave you under-prepared for racing in Sept-November. In the autumn,you need a healthy balance of distance work and strength work (faster continuous runs, fartleks with long pickups, hills that are long and short, and intervals that are appropriate for your ability). For now, however, it is wise to increase your daily distance training until you reach at least 45 minutes of running per day. Once you can run a single run of an hour without problems and be able to run a 45 minute run the next day without being tired, then you can integrate some of the more difficult training options such as fartlek or a fast continuous run (but do them only once a week for the first 3 weeks and no more than twice per week before x-country season starts). You are young, so please accept our advice willingly. We have many years of experience in these matters. Regards, Tinman

Hello again,

My father's family is originally from Portugal, but I live in RSA (South Africa).

Most of my training up to now has been on my own. I don't have a coach here so I just make up my own workouts from what I read around these forums.

The 300m downhill repeats I did because I felt I wasn't table to turn my legs over as fast as I wanted. Basically I thought it would give me extra speed.

My school does not have a running club, and the local running club is full mostly of older men and women who are not very fast.

I will go out and start to do some longer runs (45-60 minutes aerobic).

Thank ypi to all of you again

John

antonio, some guys like Jack Daniels and others say that training in the V02max zone is the most important factor in improving race performances in races of 3K-5K.

antonio I would like to ask in your opinion which work out do you think works this so called "V02MAX" zone most effectively?

1/ 15X400/50 seconds jogging recovery

or

2/ 6X1000/3 minutos jogging recovery

Fuerza or Resistencia

In Portugal you will be called Força ou Resistencia. Some folks they think that Portuguese and Spainish (castellan) are the same language.

Ok, first my comment goes for the your question – what may be the running specifics ?. If VO2 and VO2 running pace would be – an accurate indicator or the best indicator of someone capacity, then ther´s no really interest in organize competitions, the medal will be given to the runner with best VO2 or able to do the best VO2 pace. But the true is that this isn´t true, In a certain proportion no one knows what´s the best physiologic requirement to run faster. The same with race pace in intervals. Of course that the range of probability of a guy with maxVO2 of 39 and someone of 68 I bet that the 68 will win in most of the distances. The same with intervals, particularly long intervals. If someone isn´t able to do 6X1000m/5:00 rec=3min (following your example) but another runner runs 6X1000m/2:40 rec=3min, of course that the one of 2:40/kilo pace will win most of the races if not all of them.

But VO2 as well as Race Pace Target Distance despite that they aren´t perfect to an accurate estimation of a performance, which do you think that´s the best to use for estimate your running capacity and otherwise to simulate the running effort as well as a training workout ? In my opinion Race Pace that´s the best. Why?

1/First you do a real run, and not a lab run under the pace you estimate you are going to run your race distant event

2/Second, the result is a good estimate what´s your shape condition.

3/If you want to simulate in terms of perceived effort as well as physical demand a run – with less tiredness than race pace, and if you want to use intermittent efforts I don´t know nothing so good as than to divide a race distance event in parts (reps). With such a method you are able to stay longer periods in your race pace.

Then compare the 6X1000m/race pace rec=3min (following your example) and 6X1000m/VO2 pace I would prefer 1000s in Race pace for the reason I mentioned, what´s the 1000s in VO2 pace? Different than race pace for sure.

Now, running that´s mathematical in that aspect. If someone, under normal conditions - isn´t able to produce 6X1000m/3:00 alone or with a group in a workout - he hardly will do 15:00 for 5000m. But if he is able, may be he does 15:00, may be he doesn´t. But his VO2 pace is faster than 5000m race pace, what´s the meaning to run a 6X1000m/2:50 pace to prepare a 15:00 5000m race pace ?

Remember that race pace is a flexible pace – the race pace changes according that to your race distance event, but VO2 is much more steady, so you train for a 800m run in the same VO2 pace you train for a Half marathon run?

The more I see the more I believe that the matrix of all training specifics (workouts as the Americans call that) that´s race PACE, THE MOTHER AND THE PACE GUIDE OF ALL SPECIFIC TRAINING.All turns around race pace.

This said, I don´t deny the some interest of those who use VO2 training.

Any effort, even the not too much adequate there´s a change to make running improvement.

But I think that objectivity and specificity is the main issue of training. If you pretend to run a marathon you need to train in the streets somewhere somehow, if you pretend to run a 3:00/5000m or a 3:30/1500m this 2 paces are the referential – all the rest that´s not specific – that´s distant than specificity.

Excuse me all physiologists if i´m wrong. In the past most of the best performances weren´t done with the use of physiology but mainly with the use of training methodology- not neglecting the interest of physiology (a second line of interest for a coach). In the present we see the Kenyans and Ethiopians running fast times without that physiology connection. And in the future the best performances will remain out of physiology as the main interest of training guidance.

Physiology have a training dominance only when the use of drugs is the focus. But there are several coaches that they don´t believe in physiology really, but as they want to cause some GOOD impression in people that follow their principles from times to times they send out some new data to impress the public opinion. That´s the case of this VO2 or VO2 pace. That´s something to impress the audiences. People that have intellectual or pseudo-scientific minds, they full their mind with data research – and they are happy and satisfied. Training is something more serious, it takes some seasons of undisrupt training to see progress.

PS1 – Saying this I don´t want to comment on J. Daniels that I never speak directly and that i don´t know enough of his work to make judgement.

PS2 - Fuerza, next time you may include in your workout examples as 15X400m or 6X1000m what´s the distance event that the runner is going to prepare 800m, 1500m, steeple, 5000m, 1000m or HM or marathon? You also may include whats´the runners goal for that event distance and also in what time he did/or wants to do that 15X400m or 6X1000m. Without thata data both workouts means nothing at all. 50sec recover for a 15X400m/63sec that´s very diferent than 15X400m/75sec. Also 6X1000m/2:45 that´s very diferent than 6X1000m/3:05.

I think he meant using the same pace during both workouts:

15x400m @ 72s, with 50s rec.

6x1000m @ 3.00, with 3min rec.

I say the work-outs are very similar and commonly used by world class runners today and in the past. The 50s recovery might be a bit too long to match the 6x1000m work-out.

The use of data from recent races is highly relevant to how one should train. It is the abosolute means by which I determine training paces. The only exception is if the athlete has not raced in awhile. Then, I have them do an under-distance time trial and estimate what they can do at the full distance.

The use of long reps in training is a very specific tool used by coaches to simulate the race experience, elevate the fitness level, and create an understanding of pacing (running at the fastest even pace possible over the race distance used). Fast continuous runs are also excellent, because they simulate the experiences of longer races, and they create pacing awareness at an intuitive and motor skill level.

One final comment, it is nearly impossible to fake one's way through a long rep session. An athlete can run a bunch of fast 400s and think they will run a fast 5k race, but it may not be true. An athlete who runs 6 x 1km in 2:40 knows that they can likely hold close to 2:40 per km in a 5k race and reach about 13:20-13:30. Long reps reveal the truth.

antonio:

yes portuguese and spanish are different languages but very similar. i think it is interesting that you portuguese and also brazilians can understand us with no problems but we can't understand you. however this isn't a language foro and so i will stop now.

Now the work out, i was thinking exactly of a 15:00 5k runner training for the 5k .

and also thinking of the 105% that you or Renato Canova mentioned. so the work outs will be as follow:

1/ 15X400/50 seg rec jogging(105% of race pace= 69?)

or

2/ 6X1000/3:00 mins rec jogging (100% race pace= 3:00)

But from your recent post, i realize that you prefer the longer repeticions at race pace.

One more question, can you use Intermittent Training when training for the maraton?

This is much faster than your 5k pace, and the rests are too long for that type of a workout.

I like doing a workout of 40x 1 minute at 5k pace with 30 second rests in between. You might try running 20 of these, and just do them at 5k pace, not all out. I preceed this with faster steady running, and try to have faster running at least 1/2 steady, compared to less than 1/2 intermittent.

So for example I would run your 5k warmup at a very good pace, perhaps 19 minutes (PR + 1), rest 10-15 minutes, then run the 20x 1 minutes with 30 second recoveries.

That is possible. It depends on your training and development.

Besides the two primary sessions each week, I like to do a lot of easy running on the other days, and some strides at the end to keep speed. This running, besides the strikes, is very easy and relaxing, at no effort.

Hope that helps and good luck.

dunes runner wrote:

30 minutes continious running on a 300m downhill, going fast downhilll (around 51-53 seconds) and jog back up to

the top for recovery.

I like running the downhills and do something like this too, but like to include the uphills as well. You might try something like running up, rest 30 seconds, run down, rest 30 seconds, and keep your rhythm going like this, which might come out to around 68 seconds up and 52 seconds going down (doesn't matter). Again do these at a good fast rhythm and not all out, which makes it a session of attrition at race pace, rhythm and timing, rather than having the bear on your back.

As regards the two primary sessions each week, you could alternate these with the 20x 1:00 and the other one on the hills. Also I would work up to these. Maybe do just 10 of them the first time, after your faster paced run. Then when you are used to 10 of them, after the run, then do 12 of them next time. When you are used to 12 of them after the faster paced run, then go to 15, and then finally 20. And the same thing on the hills, again preceeding it with the faster pace runnning, which is very important.

Be sure to do this gradually, and just make your adjustments bit by bit, as you get used to the exercise.

Since you are running the downhills faster, make sure the hill is not too steep, as that is not necessary and could be hard on your legs.

A 4 to 5% grade is just about right.

Then make sure you are learning to relax and just let yourself coast fast down the hills without pushing.

Hola Fuerza

You may think that portuguese and castellan some 3 centuries ago we are the same language - galaico-castellan, but then our lexicon that derives from spain did separate. First that´s latin (from the romans) among other territories they did invade what´s now France, Spain, Portugal and Romenia - all latin languages. Then the distant you go from Italia, the easy we understand all latin languages. That´s the reason we understand easily portuguese spain or french or italian and the ssme with Romenians, and the same with the brazilien - that´s portuguese but with a diffrent accent and italiens or spainish they hardly understand the portuguese language. But you are right, we aren´t in a language site. We are here to discuss running.

Well. I want to say my opinion about your comment - ...But from your recent post, i realize that you prefer the longer repetitions at race pace.

Think that you are that runner that wants to run 15:00 in 5000m.

First you may start the macro cycle with aerobic training - mileage by easy runs. Then includes hills reps; fartlek, may be some easy continuous runs or some speed reps.

This is basic phase, introductory phase.

Later on, starts with short reps/short and active pause

Early in the season the short reps have no pace related to race pace - this is generic training despite ther´s step ahead from basic/introdutory phase - may be you do 10X300m/51sec rec=100m ahead on track in 39sec.

Why 39sec ? 50% pace for 100m+5%total duration of each rep

50% pace for 100m that´s (34sec)+10% from 51sec that´s 5.1, then 34s+5.1=39.1 lets say 39sec.

Another example with the same 15:00 runner : 10X500m/1:29 rec=45sec

Long runs ? May be you do ex: 5X800/2:24-2:28 (close to race pace) rec=3min or that you do 5X1200m/3:36-3:40

Don´t forget from times to times to run a fast continuous workout run (may be once every 2 weeks) -

20min warmup+30min intense pace+5min cooldown.

Now you enter in a competitive phase. This needs specific training.

Short reps are done with long intervals. If you compete you have no need to do too much check tests, but if you don´t compete too much you may start with this 3 check tests along the season in this order:

1/3X1200m/3:36-3:38+600m/all out rec=5-6min

2/3X1600/4:48-4:52+800m/all out rec=5-6minutes

3/3X2000m/6:00-6:06+1000m/all out rec=5-6min

About your question. "One more question, can you use Intermittent Training when training for the maraton?"

Yes i do, but I will ask you tomorrow with some examples. Now i need to go to bed.

Antonio, thanks for keeping this great thread going.

Viva portugal! 100 posts! YES!!