Grant Fisher: "everyone thinks they can kick"

The object is to place as high as you can.

If a lesser kicker pressed the pace in that race, he would have likely finished last with an evenly matched talented field.

Or certainly that person would finish further back than sitting and kicking.

I am not sure why people think a lesser runner can beat a better runner by leading them.

malmo wrote:

Cold War Coach wrote:

“The problem with big kickers is they often lose to other big kickers.” - Coach Groves, PSU

Actually my high school coach said the same exact thing years before I ever heard of Harry Groves. In fact that quote which you've attributed to Harry is one I've never heard him say.

It applies to Grant Fisher too. One win makes you the top termite on the mound for a day.

Incorrect, winning the NCAA 5000 makes you the man until the next NCAA's rolls around in a year. Termite... Are you trying to be funny?

I would say top of the NCAA for a year.

Star wrote:

Fitness is what gives you the best kick.

Anyone in a race that can't kick surely is a sitting duck if they try to push the pace early.

Few know what you said.

However we can add to what you said:

"If you want to race that way, you had better train that way."

They all say the same thing AFTER THE RACE. I should have went out at my pace, but they never do. They jog along and complain afterwards, every single time.

amkelley wrote:

I loved Grant Fisher's interview too. Faced with a totally lame question to the effect of "how hard was it to be so disciplined and wait until the final lap to kick?", he truthfully answered it wasn't hard at all, since he and everyone else in the field believe they can win in a sprint finish. I've always wondered why the guys who can't kick always play into the hands of the guys who can. Apparently it's all a matter of unjustified hubris.

The best kicker in that race was the TALL guy unfortunately he was out of position and ran too wide. Never assume you can outkick a tall guy!

There is an event for guys who can't kick. It's called cross country.

Barely hanging on to a 56 at the end of 14:35 is nothing to brag about.

FL guy who runs wrote:

I have huge respect for Justyn Knight, but he admitted to not getting the position he wanted which ultimately altered his kick finish. Grant was better positioned and made sure to capitalize on it. Grant knew he had decent kickers not far behind him and since they all coasted the 4400m they all had enough spark to sit and kick by a lot. Props to Grant not letting himself getting out of position or out kicked. Justyn was upset for sure in his interview, but knew it was a tactical mistake on his part for both not picking a more faster pace and to not position himself better in the bell lap.

Both of them let 3 or 4 guys pass them right before the last lap.

Speaker of hard truths wrote:

Kip Keino and Carlos Lopes was not in the race so your point is irrelevant. None of the "non-kickers" were going to win the race by taking it out hard, because they did not have the raw fitness, which is exactly why they aren't kickers. It is a necessary but not sufficient condition to having a kick.

Nobody mentioned Kip Keino but you are still wrong about raw fitness equalling kicking ability.

The only way you can say for sure that the non-kickers could not win would be if the actually took it out and tried.

Speaker of hard truths wrote:

conflated ideas wrote:

No one is saying that a back of the packer will win a race by taking it out hard. You are the one who is assuming that everyone who lacks a kick is necessarily a back of the packer. The rest of us understand that a runner can be capable of running fast times even if they don't have a great kick.

Anyone here capable of fast times will have a kick in a slow race. So yes, those lacking a kick are back of the packers. There are no exceptions, in this particular race anyway.

"Having a kick" isn't binary. It's possible to have a kick without having sufficient kick to win. Five guys finished within 1.2 seconds of Fisher. They all were fit, and they all presumably "had a kick" to some extent, but they all lost the race to someone with a better kick.

Again, I'm not sure why you keep bringing back of the packers into the discussion. There were 23 people in the race who lost. Obviously not all of them were back of the packers. Some of them were fit people who tried and failed to outkick Fisher.

Because those without any kind of a "real kick" weren't brave enough to give it a go from the start. I'm not sure why you can't understand that (insert puzzled face here).

conflated ideas wrote:

Speaker of hard truths wrote:

Anyone here capable of fast times will have a kick in a slow race. So yes, those lacking a kick are back of the packers. There are no exceptions, in this particular race anyway.

"Having a kick" isn't binary. It's possible to have a kick without having sufficient kick to win. Five guys finished within 1.2 seconds of Fisher. They all were fit, and they all presumably "had a kick" to some extent, but they all lost the race to someone with a better kick.

Again, I'm not sure why you keep bringing back of the packers into the discussion. There were 23 people in the race who lost. Obviously not all of them were back of the packers. Some of them were fit people who tried and failed to outkick Fisher.

Speaker of hard truths wrote:

Because those without any kind of a "real kick" weren't brave enough to give it a go from the start. I'm not sure why you can't understand that (insert puzzled face here).

What makes you think that I don't understand that? You are refuting your own point, not mine, by acknowledging that there were runners in the race who did not have the kick necessary to beat Fisher, but who could have increased their chances by taking the pace out early.

Star wrote:

Fitness is what gives you the best kick.

Anyone in a race that can't kick surely is a sitting duck if they try to push the pace early.

Nah. When I was a 100 m guy, all you had to do was slow the run down enough and I'd kick all the superstar 's buttocks.

Usain Bolt could win the Olympic 10 k if they slowed the first 9700 m down enough.

ohyeahthatstheticket wrote:

Fitness is what gives you the best kick.

Almost.

Fitness RELATIVE TO THE RACE PACE is what gives you the best kick.

I am a 40-something year-old weekend warrior, and I can easily run a 54-point rolling 400 to end a 20-something minute 5k, if I felt like jogging around for 4600 meters.

Meanwhile Farah and Rupp aren't going to finish in 54 in a 12:45 race.

a bit more to it wrote:

I am a 40-something year-old weekend warrior, and I can easily run a 54-point rolling 400 to end a 20-something minute 5k, if I felt like jogging around for 4600 meters.

Meanwhile Farah and Rupp aren't going to finish in 54 in a 12:45 race.

You sure, champ? I don't think 12:45 is happening for either of them at this point, but 54 is NOT out of the question for 1500/5000m PR-shape Mo:

"After a 53.7 last lap (26.4 last 200), Farah was the winner in a new British record of 12:53.11 with Lagat 2nd in 12:53.60 " - Monaco, 2011, Mo's 5000m PR run/win over Lagat that should've been under 12:50 if the pacing didn't fall off in the middle.

Way too snug wrote:

Barely hanging on to a 56 at the end of 14:35 is nothing to brag about.

When you win an NCAA championship, it's something to brag about. 56 is pretty good actually, what were you expecting? 51?

to your points wrote:

Star wrote:

Fitness is what gives you the best kick.

Anyone in a race that can't kick surely is a sitting duck if they try to push the pace early.

Yeah, not really.

Best post in the thread.

a bit more to it wrote:

ohyeahthatstheticket wrote:

Fitness is what gives you the best kick.

Almost.

Fitness RELATIVE TO THE RACE PACE is what gives you the best kick.

I am a 40-something year-old weekend warrior, and I can easily run a 54-point rolling 400 to end a 20-something minute 5k, if I felt like jogging around for 4600 meters.

Meanwhile Farah and Rupp aren't going to finish in 54 in a 12:45 race.

You know what? I bet you've never tried that and would be amazed how far off you would be if you tried.

Even if you were a 15 flat guy right now.

malmo wrote:

Cold War Coach wrote:

“The problem with big kickers is they often lose to other big kickers.” - Coach Groves, PSU

Actually my high school coach said the same exact thing years before I ever heard of Harry Groves. In fact that quote which you've attributed to Harry is one I've never heard him say.

It applies to Grant Fisher too. One win makes you the top termite on the mound for a day.

Ha, I love the termite comment. Grant Fisher is a lucky termite.

Or maybe "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.”