Yes, you don't want to peak in high school. To run 3:55 required a once in a lifetime talent like Ryun plus a coach like this:
http://www.runnersworld.com/runners-stories/running-coach-bob-timmons
Yes, you don't want to peak in high school. To run 3:55 required a once in a lifetime talent like Ryun plus a coach like this:
http://www.runnersworld.com/runners-stories/running-coach-bob-timmons
Combine huge talent, incredibly hard work, and no interest in longevity, and someone who matures early - put them in a stacked race (such as the one where he ran 3:55) and special things happen. Webb and Ryun were very similar in many ways besides their HS miles times. Webb was stronger, Ryun faster.
I do think it's interesting that if Ryun had a similar career today he would be blasted on these boards because he was so inconsistent esp later in his career. Much like Webb.
Why challenge Mt. Everest when you can challenge your own mind and body's Everest?
Ryun was a freak of talent no doubt. BUT he had a damn good ex-Marine coach that created an iron will through an obscene training regime. Long runs, weights, high quality sessions. He built an impressive program. In many ways the quality of training was similar to Peter Coe with his systematic, low volume high quality routines. Once Ryun began to question his coach before Mexico City he suffered greatly and never regained form or consistency. Who knows? Maybe it would have been the same outcome if he stayed with Timmons. BUT I do think if runners focused on training like Timmons gave Ryun you would have been a handful of High School runners at 3:55 since then.
Soccer drains the talent wrote:
The most gifted distance runners play soccer. Anyone who can't cut it on the soccer field joins cross country (see Galen Rupp).
/thread
In the US, football takes talent from lacrosse which takes talent away from soccer. Even then, Basketball and track have the best arhletes period. Baseball and Lacrosse follow closely. Soccer is the lowest on the totem pole in the U.S. especially talent-wise.
For good reason. Too many choices in US and soccer is the boringest sport ever. At least xc is a race. Soccer is basically watching 120 minutes of team jogging to a 1 to 1 tie. Soccer is for drama queens who don''t have the talent to do other sports.
The only reason it's popular world wide is you dont need any $ to play so third world countries and homeless can play it anywhere. That why Tobago can beat US soccer "athletes"
Inspired by guys like Percy Cerutty - coach of Herb Elliott, the sixties were populated by coaches like Timmons who inspired and broke many a talent in the days before the importance of "rest" became mainstreamed and became accepted in coaching circles. In my experience, the first major coach to make healing and rest an important component was the Georgetown coach in about 1968. Until then, he'd been a grizzled, old-school disciplinarian but turned 180 degrees and introduced what was called "Long Slow Distance" (in true 60's lingo - LSD!). Then, the idea of Hard Day/Easy Day became accepted common sense.
GhostmanSnell wrote:
Ryun was a freak of talent no doubt. BUT he had a damn good ex-Marine coach that created an iron will through an obscene training regime. Long runs, weights, high quality sessions. He built an impressive program. In many ways the quality of training was similar to Peter Coe with his systematic, low volume high quality routines.
Most of Ryun's interval sessions were anything but low volume/high quality. For the bulk of his season it was daily intervals of many reps at slower than race pace. He switched to the lower volume/high intensity reps only near the end of the season. His coach tailored his training system from his days as a swim coach.
seriously....? wrote:
It's been 50+ years since Jim Ryun ran 3:55 as a high schooler on a bad cinder track. Since then, training methods have evolved, technology has become better (better tracks and better shoes), and yet only one other American high schooler has beaten his time since then and that too in a super elite loaded race.
What gives? Yes more people are going sub 4 now but still no one near Ryun. Was he that talented or are HSers still not getting to their full potential?
Ryun ran the 3:55.3 on a beat up Grasstex surface. Not really a great track but not cinders either. He ran his 3:58.3 HS only race on dirt, it wasn't even cinders.
Maybe Ryun was just that good. That's why it's taken so long to catch up to him. Many many people who saw him run feel he was as talented and had as much or more potential at the 1500/mile than anyone else, but was a victim of poor training (lack of knowledge back in the day).
dads wrote:
Once thing that struck me when reading his book was how insecure Ryun was in HS, and how this insecurity generated the motivation required to complete the high volume, high intensity training. His early racing training didn't indicate insane talent - his greatest talent may have been the ability to absorb training that destroyed most others, though perhaps survive may be a better word. Lydiard thought that Ryun was overtrained and would've run faster under his system. Given Lydiard's exceptional strike rate, he may have a point.
To the OP's point, schools today are interested in avoiding risk rather than achieving excellence.
Peter Snell said Ryun was an incredible talent and was the only runner who could have survived what Timmons subjected him to.
Jack Daniels knows some things about Ryun that he hasn't made public. He doesn't really say much, but people in the know say he feels Ryun had the most potential of any runner at 1500 that he'd ever tested and that includes Kenyans.
Bruce R. wrote:
Ryun was a mind-blowing talent. As a high-school freshman, I believe he ran 5:10 in his first dual meet. In his second dual meet, he ran 4:26 and beat the Kansas state champ. I believe he ran a 47 quarter on his high school relay team. From the beginning, in that era, he was a unique blend of speed and endurance. On U-tube there's a grainy video of him running 3:58 all by himself on a crappy track as a high school junior.
Ryun went to a three year high school. He ran 5:38 in the mile in a time trial as a soph the week he joined the X-Country team. He went from the last man on the soph team to number one on the team (from 21st to 1st) and finished 6th at the state finals with only 10 weeks of training. He ran 4:32 in his first mile race when the track season started, then 4:26...and by June he ran 4:07.8. He improved a minute and a half in the mile in 9 months. Freakish talent. With sensible training he likely would have ruled the track for almost 10 years, but it wasn't to be.
Les wrote:
Yes, you don't want to peak in high school. To run 3:55 required a once in a lifetime talent like Ryun plus a coach like this:
http://www.runnersworld.com/runners-stories/running-coach-bob-timmons
That article was a hatchet job on Timmons, literally all of his former athletes think the author went too far, should have been booted. A couple of people say the author always had it in for Timmons, some of it due to his own failings when he was a HS athlete. Strange.
Bruce R. wrote:
Ryun was a mind-blowing talent. As a high-school freshman, I believe he ran 5:10 in his first dual meet. In his second dual meet, he ran 4:26 and beat the Kansas state champ. I believe he ran a 47 quarter on his high school relay team. From the beginning, in that era, he was a unique blend of speed and endurance. On U-tube there's a grainy video of him running 3:58 all by himself on a crappy track as a high school junior.
Wrong. Ryun ran three years in high school.
1962-63 15 year old sophomore
- 5:38 mile time trial
- 11:51 2 mile XC first time trial
- 11:23 4th in first JV race
- won the next JV race
- 10:36 in first varsity race, eventually becoming Wichita East's top runner
- 6th at State meet, leading the team to victory.
- 4:40 self-timed time trial during the winter of his sophomore year
- 4:32.2 loses his first mile race by 0.2 to defending State champ Charles Harper
- 4:26.5 down 15 meters with 100 to go, Ryun digs deep and finds that kick of his, winning his first mile over Harper.
- 4:21.7 leads from gun to tape for win #2
- 4:21.3 wins again, runs first 880, a leg of winning 2mi relay team
age 16
- 4:19.7 wins another mile
- 4:16.2 wins state meet
- 4:08.2 MVAAU loses to college runner, doubles back with 1:54.5 880 (5th)
- 1:53.6 5th again, behind four college kids
- 4:07.8 USTFF 6th against college kids
1963-64 Junior year 16 years old
- Undefeated in cross country
- 4 mile AAU XC meet against college runners he finished 3rd
- indoor meet at Cow Palace (SF) Lindgren in race. Ryun stumbles off track then finishes well back in 9:22.6
age 17
- 4:06.4 wins state meet in national hs record time.
- 4:01.7 3rd in Modesto behind Burleson and O'Hara
- 3:59.0 8th in Compton, first time that 8 runner had broken 4:00 in the same race, and the first time a hs kid broke 4:00.
- 1:50.3 5th in open competition
- 9:06.5 in KS allcomers
- 3:39.0 4th at AAU 1500m
- 3:46.1 4th NY Randalls Island OT
- 3:41.9 3rd LA Olympic Trials last lap 5.35
- 3:44.4 4th Tokyo heats
- 3:55 DFL Tokyo semi Flu
1964-65 senior year 17 years old
- 4:07.2 State Indoor meet
- 4:04.4 Wichita East Invite
- 4:02.0 Hutchichson Invite
age 18
- 3:58.3 State meet win, first and only sub 4:00 in all hs competition
- 3:58.1 1st California Relays Beat Grelle
- 3:56.8 Modesto 3rd behind Snell and Grelle
- 4:04.3 Golden West HS 1st
- 9:04 Golden West HS 1st
- 3:55.3 1st San Diego American Record, defeats Snell 53.9 last lap
- 3:40.4 2nd US/USSR dual meet
- 3:49.9 1st US/Poland dual meet
- 3:41.6 1st US/Germany
1965-66 Freshman college 18 years old
- 3:42.7 1st Sugar Bowl
- 4:02.2 1st Millrose Games
- 4:03.9 1st Texas Relays
- 8:47.4 1st two mile SW Relays
- 3:58 4x1 mile Emporia Relays, of DMR, 47.6 on 4x440
- 3:59 DMR Kansas Relays
- 3:55.8 Kansas Relays
age 19
- 8:25.2 Los Angeles American Record, beats Grelle and Keino
- 3:53.7 Compton Relays 0.1 short of Jazys WR
- 1:44.9 World Record Terre Haute, IN
- 4:02.8 47.8 relay
- 3:58.6 AAU
- 3:51.3 World Record Berkeley
I started High School a minute behind Ryun's 5:48, but finished only 45 seconds behind his 3:55. If I hadn't gotten injured, I would have caught him by the end of college!
BS wrote:
Combine huge talent, incredibly hard work, and no interest in longevity, and someone who matures early - put them in a stacked race (such as the one where he ran 3:55) and special things happen. Webb and Ryun were very similar in many ways besides their HS miles times. Webb was stronger, Ryun faster.
I do think it's interesting that if Ryun had a similar career today he would be blasted on these boards because he was so inconsistent esp later in his career. Much like Webb.
We all know Ryun's HS training as insanity, but could anyone shed light on Webb's ?
Likely, but doesn't change the fact that Timmons coached Ryun throughout high school and college and Ryun peaked at age 20. It was only his superhuman talent that allowed him to survive that murderous training, and in the end even he crumbled.
Les wrote:
Likely, but doesn't change the fact that Timmons coached Ryun throughout high school and college and Ryun peaked at age 20. It was only his superhuman talent that allowed him to survive that murderous training, and in the end even he crumbled.
I have read many stories and interviews about and with Ryun. I have never seen a place where he attributed "crumbling" to his training. He's always talked about the pressure of expectations and difficulty finding a job that would allow him to train, race, and support a family as the reason he retired.
Did run that race on a cinder track? If so they say there is a one second difference per lap from tartan tracks.
Before runners became pro, they just ran hard and didn't worry about burnout and a long career to make money.
anybody have a clue what ryun's lifestyle was like as a teen? is there some physical element that spurred his development?
apackeddirttrack wrote:
anybody have a clue what ryun's lifestyle was like as a teen? is there some physical element that spurred his development?
As a Kansas farm boy he would have begun eating boatloads of beets when he turned 15 as a rite of passage