why do Jack Daniels M pace workouts destroy me?

FastJogger wrote:

Why do you think I’m predominantly a sugar burner more so than other runners? Is that something that can be changed? One thing I’ve found is that morning runs are without a doubt always an epic disaster. I bonk a few miles from home, and then crawl back. I drink the latest coolest cardio sugar drinks beforehand and that mitigates it to a degree. I even try eating moments before bed the night before.

Because your ability tails off at longer distances. The comment about morning runs confirms this. You'll be burning fat when you get up (a long time since last carb meal) but you stop that instantly if you take in sugar.

If you want to get better at longer distances (and healthier!) you need to practice those morning runs without any carbs. Run/walk if you have to. After a week or two you'll start improving and your long distance performance will get much better.

The undertaker wrote:

What are the modern training programs you look to that better implements some of what you mentioned?

Really big fan of Magness and Letsrun's very own John Kellogg. That guy doesn't have a training program out there, but his stuff can be found online in a compiled format. Understanding him helped me improve a lot in college and also has helped the college team I coach a ton. There are other coaches that are great to look at too. I think it is really important to look at what a lot of successful coaches have done and see things that they have in common with each other. Sometimes its just semantics and sometimes they truly differ. Its important to look at everything. I think the best coaches base their programs off of essentially one big meta-analysis of stuff that seems to work.

One thing I would highly advice against doing is looking at what professional coaches do. That sounds crazy, but these guys are dealing with the best in the world. Some of these runners can handle any type of training and be good. Most were developed before they even got to the professional ranks. Look into coaches that have a history of developing runners either from mediocre to great, or from great to "next-level." For most of us, what those guys are doing is how you truly get it done.

R. D. M. T Why the nerdy code?

So ridiculous. Daniels is so worthless as a training program if you're actually looking to improve under your own guidance. If you can handle it, it simply means you're durable and would be much faster on a different training plan. This is truth.

I love how all these people flock to it though....everyone I know who uses it modifies it so much because it doesn't produce results. okay

thanks for the friendly post.

R-thoughts and M-insights wrote:

R. D. M. T Why the nerdy code?

So ridiculous. Daniels is so worthless as a training program if you're actually looking to improve under your own guidance. If you can handle it, it simply means you're durable and would be much faster on a different training plan. This is truth.

I love how all these people flock to it though....everyone I know who uses it modifies it so much because it doesn't produce results. okay

You sound mad. Anyways, we are discussing the principles and not following the program exactly as it is outlined. Since we are talking about Daniels, we use his own code when referring to his own training. His principles are pretty sound. It helped me improve a lot in college. I was a 4:29/9:35 guy in HS and ran 3:44/13:41 through similar principles.

I modified it for the college team I coach as well with race-specific stuff added in and better supplementary work. In my first year, a bunch of 25:50 XC runners became 24:40 guys and after a couple years we are consistently a bubble team for Nationals. 15:02 was the average 5k on the team back when I started and now it is 14:27 with usually a couple guys making NCAA regionals in track. If that isn't improvement, I don't know what is. The shit works.

Former Sub 14:00 - What would you say (aside from race specific work) are the biggest supplementary pieces you add to Daniels? Or the biggest things you take away?

And, on top of that, the complaint about Daniels that I would expect to hear with respect to training intensities from someone who has read Daniels is that it isn't intense enough, not that it is so intense that those who succeed have succeeded because they were able to make it through. The guy's mantra is basically "only goes as hard as necessary to effectuate the adaptation."

For everyone saying JD is terrible, maybe you are too advanced to be his audience. JDs book changed me for the better as a runner. Before I read it, I was clueless. Before I read it, I ran every run somewhere between easy and marathon pace with the occasional time trial thrown in. I'd have to take tons of days off due to fatigue. Maybe once a week I'd throw in a speed session that would be like 6x400 at an all out effort. Now I do something that resembles proper training

Former Sub 14:00 wrote:

The undertaker wrote:

What are the modern training programs you look to that better implements some of what you mentioned?

Really big fan of Magness and Letsrun's very own John Kellogg.

Brad Hudson's book is pretty solid too. Basically it's a highly digestible version of Canova, without a lot of science. He emphasizes a variety of paces, moving towards race pace as the cycle progresses. His other big thing is adjusting training as you go, rather than being locked into a schedule. So if you're still feeling really flat from a workout early in the week, you can push your next one back.

This is a pretty good thread. I'm trying out Daniels 2Q program in the third edition for the first time for Chicago marathon in October. Been using McMillan's training plans for a while and wanted to try something different. Daniels' 2Q appealed to me because it seems to target all the paces over the course of the program and includes a fair amount of marathon pace training, which I've found works very well for me.

Changes I plan on making include a more gradual progression in the beginning (for example, 12 miles of M pace seems a bit much the first Q1 workout), some weekly short hill sprints (Hudson style) in place of recommended strides, and perhaps swapping out some of the tempo intervals the last month for longer M pace runs. Based on others' suggestions I may add some longer tempo runs up to an hour based on his tables in the second edition.

I would also note that in the third edition, Daniels generally recommends starting marathon training at your current VDOT or two levels lower than goal, whichever is lower. And then every six weeks bump up a level until last six weeks you are training at your goal pace. Seems smart to me, so I will start training at M paces slower than goal and build up, which hopefully will forestall peaking too early, which is a worry of mine using this program given the relatively high volume of T and M training it starts off with.

I've used Marathon Training Plan A as the basis for my three marathon training plans. I felt very well prepared going into each marathon. The M paced runs of 13-15 miles were the toughest workouts for me.

I made some of the adjustments that you're thinking about - primarily working in a little more M paced work towards the end. I tend to do a bigger taper than he calls for, sonthe added M work was done the last two weeks and it came in small doses - 4 miles at the end of a 10 miler, things like that. It wasn't as much about physiological adaptation at that point as it was about trying to get a feel for what marathon pace felt like since I rarely run it.

My take on that plan is that even if you get say 17 of the 20 workouts in during the 10 weeks before your taper you should feel pretty confident going into race day.

Smoove, I thought of something this morning while on a 10mile M pace run. I think sometimes people (including yourself) think of running fitness as aerobic and cardiovascular fitness. As (I think) Jay Johnson has said...we're not just training a heart with legs.

Anyway, I think one of the advantages of doing more M pace than maybe Daniel's 2nd edition would recommend is actually muscular. I can tell the difference between the power I need to produce at M pace and the power I need at E pace...(especially in my calves today). Obviously T pace requires even more muscular recruitment/power, but an M pace run can be an hour or more, whereas a T pace run of an hour is, by definition, basically a race effort.

If I recall correctly, while your marathon efforts have been really impressive, the part that's held you back a couple times now is muscle cramping, not energy bonking or breathlessness. This may support the argument that certainly a marathoner can hit all the oxygen uptake needs without running much at the "marathon junk miles tweener pace" and hitting each system efficiently, but there's more to running than oxygen demand...especially when running for 2.5 hours or more.

Now, whether this specific enhancement is necessary for a guy who wants to FastJog 5ks like the OP is a different discussion, and if you're trashed for days from the workout it's probably more efficient to scale it back so you aren't harming your other workouts until you get stronger, but my point is just that there's a case for M pace running outside of heart considerations as a sustained, long effort with reasonably high muscle recruitment demand.

Obviously, you shouldn't do this on all your runs because it can break you down over time just like you shouldn't run only I pace or only T pace, but the whole process of adaptation is slightly breaking yourself down so the body adjusts and builds you up stronger than before. So some balance of "breakdown" is sort of needed.

If you're running all your runs at M pace, neglecting the other systems, etc...that's still dumb...that's usually how a beginner trains as Jimmy described, but when applied wisely I think it does have more of a place in training (esp. marathon training), than some people give it credit.

Smoove - thanks for the feedback. Will keep it in mind

DSP - I definitely agree about the benefits of M pace running for strength. My best marathons have come from including lots of goal pace training, including some long 13-16 mile goal pace runs. For a strength based runner like me, who generally does not have much "speed" and struggles in shorter races, but can run longer distances fairly easy, there is a significant benefit I get from M pace as opposed to just running easy. I will acknowledge that a lot of the benefit is mental as those workouts build confidence, but there is a physiological benefit too.

DSP, you are preaching to the choir, I am a convert with respect to more M paced training for the marathon.

I definitely prioritize the aerobic/cardiovascular components of training, but I do try to go beyond that, particularly towards the end of a training cycle when the cardiovascular gains have already been made and you are reaching the point where you want to be race ready. That is the time that I focus on some other things - primarily race modeling, confidence building workouts and workouts that will leave me more refreshed than challenged.

And you are correct - in my last two marathons I suffered significant cramping. I am still trying to figure out why that happened. The easy answer is that I wasn't fit enough (from a muscular standpoint) to be running 5:40s and I paid the price at the end. I honestly don't think that is the case though. In the 6 weeks before my taper, I got in just shy of 70 miles of work at M pace or faster, including some decent T miles that started 16 miles into a 22 miler a couple of times. I honestly think I was just dehydrated or electrolyte depleted going into those races (the night before Boston, I was getting cramps in my feet, arms and lats while in bed) and then had a moderately warm day in once race and a really warm day in the other on top of it.

In any event, I agree with your overall point - race readiness goes beyond having your heart and lungs in order and that some of your training should be oriented toward other things. I think the last 4 weeks of a training cycle are the ideal time for emphasizing those things.

Great thread. I really appreciate everyone contributing their thoughts and being civil.

I think Daniel's does quite well with 5k training because the vo2max sessions gives the athlete a good volume of work at ~5k pace. Also trying to get the greatest volume at vo2max leads to doing long repeats at 5k pace which many programs lack. Throw in some work faster than race pace and some longer endurance sessions through tempos and cruise intervals and you have the makings of a good program.

What I don't like is the focus on trying to improve three physiologic parameters: Running Economy, vO2max, & lactate threshold. My critique isn't focused on the actual workouts but the thought process to arrive at which workouts to do.

Running Economy: There are plenty of studies that doing plyometrics & strength training improve running economy. If my goal is only to improve running economy then why not replace some R pace sessions on the track with a box jump workout?

vO2max: Improved vO2max isn't correlated with improved running performance and people can improve 3k and 5k performance without improving their vO2max. The velocity someone can run at their vO2max does correlate with performance but this is basically just saying that faster runners are faster. Moreover, vO2max workouts haven't been shown to be the best way to improve vO2max velocity. Do they improve it? For some people, but other training methods work too.

LT: The lactate threshold value also doesn't correlate with race performance. Like vO2max the velocity at LT correlates with running performance but again really you are saying that faster runners are faster. And again like vO2max, running at LT pace hasn't been shown to be the best way to improve LT velocity.

With that said, I still think that Daniel's arrives at a pretty good 5k plan. Half marathon as well as you focus on some faster running and long runs at first and then meet in the middle with a lot of tempo work to get ready for the half marathon.

As a coach though, I'm concerned about how I would adapt the Daniel's principles or improving RE, vO2max & LT to a variety of scenarios.

How would I coach an 800m or 1500m athlete?

Should track vs XC vs road training be different?

How would I coach an ultramarathoner?

How would I coach an athlete to kick well at the end of a race?

How would I coach an athlete coming back from injury or illness?

I personally coach at a small HS so we are always lacking in numbers. I have 2 milers that need to run the 4x400, 800/milers that also hurdle or high jump, a stellar 200m runner that somehow scraped into the top 7 for 5k XC.

In some of these cases I don't think the physiology perspective will always arrive at a good answer. Instead I try to approach from what abilities does the athlete need to be successful in competition, what are the athlete's current abilities, and how can I develop those abilities. Sometimes this ends up with training that looks like Daniel's but pretty often I end up with training that looks nothing like Daniel's.

the easy pace seems way to hard.

My max is 185. Everyone has different definitions of zone 1 but 70% of max heart rate seems about right. This means the upper zone 1 for me is 139 BPM.

Your zone 1 is 129. If you slow down on your easy runs by 15-20 BPM you'll feel much more refreshed and ready to hit it on your hard days. Trust me.

These easy days won't feel like workouts. That's the point. Save your work outs for hard days.

The undertaker wrote:

Former Sub 14:00 - What would you say (aside from race specific work) are the biggest supplementary pieces you add to Daniels? Or the biggest things you take away?

The biggest thing I strip away is the heavy emphasis on VO2 max work. He characterizes this as "I-pace." I think it is really overrated. For my 5k group, they obviously work on 5k pace so that is there for them. For the 1500 group they do 3k pace as part of their longer rep work on the track so it is also there. However, for the 800m group and the XC + 10k group it is demphasized. The steeple-5k group also does a lot of stuff at 10k pace for over distance work. Basically, the stuff I do on the track is more than just the 3k-5k "I-pace" and the 1500m "R-pace" zones. My athletes do stuff from all out sprints all the way up to marathon-pace work. Whole range of paces with different emphasis depending on the time of year.

The biggest supplementary things I add are some of which I just mentioned. We do a lot of fast short hills, long slower hills, and sometimes sprints near max speed (even for the 5k group). There are pick ups and fartleks build into runs as well. I personally did a lot of hill circuits in place of fast hill work sometimes. I did hill bounding, fartlek, hill strides, fartlek, etc. in one big workout when I was in peak fitness. It made the transition to sub 14:00 and sub 3:45 pace a lot easier at the time. That stuff is similar to Canova and Lydiard. Would be too scared to try it with a college team though. Tons of potentially injured people would cost me my job.

Really, its nothing new. People may read Daniels and say you can substitute his stuff with some of this and claim that he really does support that kind of flexibility. The problem is his sample training weeks don't reflect that at all.....which is what people only seem to pay attention to unfortunately. It is unreasonable to expect for him to write dozens of sample training weeks with multiple training patterns though. You got to dig deeper and think about his principles more. Again, I think its best to look into other coaches and combine them into something that works for you.

Pick up Magness' book and Hudson's book. Read John Kellogg's stuff too.

For what it's worth, I have access to either artificial grass surface or a very soft trail and wear a super lightweight shoe with insole removed in order to maintain a quicker than normal pace on tempo, interval workouts.

I'm late to the party but I do have a question for former Sub 14. Do you actually incorporate sizable portion of M pace work during XC, or for 5k/10k group during track?.

My college coach was more of an Igloi type guy. Our team was made up of 24 high/ 25 low guys and we did 20 x 400 in 70, 10 x 1k in 3:00, 5-6 x 1 mile in 4:50-5:00 and 2 x 5k in 16:00 for staple workouts (all on grass). We also did road workouts (basically hard tempoes with separate warm-up and stretch beforehand) of 4 miles in 20:20 and 8 miles at 5:30 pace. Probably 1/3 of our miles were "easy" doubles of 4-6 mile at 6 flat to 6:30 pace. Long runs were generally 14-17 miles on mixed terrain run easy (7ish pace) down to 6 flat or so over last 5 miles. The one thing we never did was any work in what I'm guessing would have been our M pace zone of 5:30-5:50. Even when we did "progression" runs, we generally jumped straight from 6 flat pace down to 5:20.

For collegiate xc runners, what is the specific advantage of M pace runs and how do you work them into training cycle?