How to determine lactate threshold pace?

Does anyone not find it interesting the original question asked about blood lactate threshold and everyone is going on about VDot? Why does the conversation gravitate towards volume oxygen consumption when we can easily take a direct measure of blood lactate?

MY GOD......You all are a bunch of nerds....most likely runners that couldn't make and now think that you know it all bases on "Science" .

Leo1005 wrote:

Ok. Daniels says my "threshold" pace is 5:45. So LT pace is one speed, and you shouldn't go above OR below? Will I still get benefits by staying just below, on the safe side, or will that reduce the improvements from it?

For other reference, my PR's that could be useful are 4:49 for the mile, 10:16 for the 3200, and 16:46 for the 5K.

You can use stats gangsta's calculator to estimate your LT pace. Using 4:49 and 10:16, your LT pace is 5:56 per mile. The benefit of this calculator over Daniels' and others' is that the results take your specific personal fitness into account. The other calculators do not do that.

A 50 second 400m guy running a 4:49 mile and a 60 second 400m guy running a 4:49 mile will have very different LT paces.

Running Nude wrote:

MY GOD......You all are a bunch of nerds....most likely runners that couldn't make and now think that you know it all bases on "Science" .

It's not like that all. We are just runners debating and sharing opinions. No one went over the top.

However, we all agree that LT is a steady state, where lactate accumulation does not increase or decrease. There is just a different perception on how to achieve it.

Remember, there is a difference between treshold pace and intensity. Quite easy to know what intensity you're at if you're using a lactate meter. Its available online.

Daniels is a great resource, but you have to read it ALL to understand it properly, not just pull up a single table based on one race time.

LT is the pace where you are not accumulating Lactate. Simple. But the pace will change based on whether you are tired and how long your tempo run will be. Daniels has a table that shows how much to slow down as you go longer. This is because LT is your 15K to Half Marathon pace. If you decide to run LT pace for 60min, you are running a race. If you do LT pace for 20min, you are doing a workout.

Generally, it is better to train slightly slower than LT, rather than slightly faster because you will almost always be tired during training phases and hence have a slightly slower LT. Also, you are less likely to over stress your body, but will still get the benefits of pace, respiration, and heart rate. Look at the Daniels training paces for a given Vdot and you will see they seem a little slow. This is because he advocates training at a pace you can handle (ie, your actual current ability not your pie in the sky goal) but still derive training stimulus.

A Lactate Meter is not a realistic tool for a runner out doing a solo tempo run. People need to learn to run by feel.

GoodCoachingAdvice wrote:

A Lactate Meter is not a realistic tool for a runner out doing a solo tempo run. People need to learn to run by feel.

Yes it is. Its small and fast. Ingebrigtsens x 3 use it religiously.

GoodCoachingAdvice wrote:

A Lactate Meter is not a realistic tool for a runner out doing a solo tempo run. People need to learn to run by feel.

You are absolutely correct. A blood lactate analyzer is not a realistic tool for a runner doing a solo tempo run. However, with a coach there are instances this can be a very realistic tool. Then again, the real use is not to measure blood lactate concentration during any specific workout. I think most athletes would grow tired of this, but not so in key workouts where gathering specific data points can be important. I think the most realistic use of using a blood lactate analyzer is in an incremental test in which blood lactate threshold can easily be determined. Heart rate data collected during this test can be used to determine training zones specific for stressing the body at specific training intensities below, at, or above TLac. A heart rate monitor is a very realistic tool for nearly every workout, especially a tempo run. Running by feel is great if the runner is trained to understand what they are feeling, but for the most part I have found most runners have a disconnect between what is actually the intensity appropriate to see the best adaptations.

The importance of blood lactate kinetics during exercise is well documented.

GoodCoachingAdvice wrote:

Daniels is a great resource, but you have to read it ALL to understand it properly, not just pull up a single table based on one race time.

Generally, it is better to train slightly slower than LT, rather than slightly faster because you will almost always be tired during training phases and hence have a slightly slower LT. Also, you are less likely to over stress your body, but will still get the benefits of pace, respiration, and heart rate. Look at the Daniels training paces for a given Vdot and you will see they seem a little slow. This is because he advocates training at a pace you can handle (ie, your actual current ability not your pie in the sky goal) but still derive training stimulus.

Bingo! I think he was smart to realize people are likely to overreach even when given a specific pace from his book. His book is a great tool for the majority of coaches. However, for anyone paying the money for an education in physiology, I hope they would rely on more than a book written for the masses.

wall.e wrote:

You are absolutely correct. A blood lactate analyzer is not a realistic tool for a runner doing a solo tempo run. However, with a coach there are instances this can be a very realistic tool. Then again, the real use is not to measure blood lactate concentration during any specific workout. I think most athletes would grow tired of this, but not so in key workouts where gathering specific data points can be important.

First off its very easy to have in your pocket during a tempo run. You finish, take it out and test yourself. It takes 40 seconds at the most.

Regarding athletes growing tired of using this, hats not my experience at all. Personally and other running mates, its very fun to use. You get instant and objective feedback. And regarding running by feel....at first when we started using the lactate meter you really saw how many runners thought they were on the correct intensity but wasn't.

Leo1005 wrote:

Ok. Daniels says my "threshold" pace is 5:45. So LT pace is one speed, and you shouldn't go above OR below? Will I still get benefits by staying just below, on the safe side, or will that reduce the improvements from it?

For other reference, my PR's that could be useful are 4:49 for the mile, 10:16 for the 3200, and 16:46 for the 5K.

Tempo should be run at that pace but you can do workouts above or below it depending on what you are working on.

Intervals would typically be run at a faster pace but you can do Ionger into at tempo pace

Nordiccc wrote:

First off its very easy to have in your pocket during a tempo run. You finish, take it out and test yourself. It takes 40 seconds at the most.

Regarding athletes growing tired of using this, hats not my experience at all. Personally and other running mates, its very fun to use. You get instant and objective feedback. And regarding running by feel....at first when we started using the lactate meter you really saw how many runners thought they were on the correct intensity but wasn't.

I am sure that a lacate meter can be a useful tool when you can get it to work but when I bought a lacate pro meter it was nothing but a source of frustration and after a few weeks I stopped using it.

First, it was almost impossible to get enough blood out of my finger tips for the meter using the lancets they provided and trying to do so resulted in an interval pause scheduled to last 1 minute lasting 3 or 4 minutes instead which pretty much ruined the session I tried to do.

Second, even when I got enough blood in the meter it gave strange readings like 2 mmol regardless of what pace I was running. I tried reclaibrating the meter, buying a whole bunch of new test strips and even contacting the company in Japan all to no avail.

If you can get one of these things to work then great but instead I passed 3 of the most frustrating weeks of my running when trying to use one.

I don't think it is necessary. Heart rate is just as easily used to determine the body's effort. The less invasive you can be the better. There are definitely specific sessions I have collected a blood lactate measure, but I would not be doing this during most. Using when beginning to coach an athlete may be a useful technique to demonstrate the effects of varying intensities, but unless a non-invasive method using NIRS or the likes comes about I have found heart rate to be sufficient in training.

Lactate Pro is discontinued, lactate pro 2 is ungodly expensive. I would not recommend either. The analyzer and strips cost a fortune.

You may need to improve your technique for blood sampling. It is very easy to draw enough blood. I have done incremental testing on tracks before (the likes of Ferrari would say this is better, more practical, than treadmill testing) with 30 sec or less pause for collection at the end of each stage. I have only done this with women using male pacemakers, the men would be nearly impossible as they are reaching 22-23 kph and there are no pacemakers available to maintain a constant pace. But again, I think your technique needs practice if you are unable to draw a sufficient sample and collect a reading.

There is an art to the science. You have to have the technical knowledge first, then shape it to be your own.

Never really had an issue with that. You have two types of commonly used lactate meters: Pro and Scout. Pro requires a bit more blood than Scout but its better to bring with you on solo runs and similar. The lancets they provide are not good enough, by your own at the store with a slightly bigger tip. Try it.

Ok. Among all the runners I've known using a lactate meter, one guy was like you. He had very low lactate no matter how hard he ran, he just wasn't able to produce high levels.

I disagree. Heart rate is more flimsy and can change based on stuff that doesn't really have anything with your shape that day. Though, it is useful and for me and most people I know using them, after a while you develope more of an understanding of the connection between a certain lactate, HR and feel.

If you want to be the best, its useful to use the best tools.

Agree about the price of strips. Hopefully in the future someone will improve on the leg sleeve wich measured lactate levels by using infra red. I think it was so and so correct.

Best way to know your threshold pace is by effort feeling. When you have to change your breathing pattern from your relaxed race breathing pattern to a faster breathing pattern (which will soon lead to lactate in your muscles) that means you went beyond the threshold point. Work according to this. Run at a pace that is close to it.

Ruppster wrote:

Best way to know your threshold pace is by effort feeling. When you have to change your breathing pattern from your relaxed race breathing pattern to a faster breathing pattern (which will soon lead to lactate in your muscles) that means you went beyond the threshold point. Work according to this. Run at a pace that is close to it.

Like Nordic said above, when runners went by RPE they were usually wrong.

The variability is accumulating lactate varies so much which is why I preferred plotting the data and using something like Dmax or graphing it rather than a set concentration.

All that said, you can estimate it closely enough through paying attention to ventilation rate. If you think you need to get the pace down to the second then you are calling for an accuracy that is over the top.