My quest for sub 1:50 in the 800m

Thank you @gahagand for sharing this. I do agree, that if the goal is to increase the VO2max, that kind of work is the most specific and brings the most benefit. However, VO2max is the variable that we can only expect to improve for some time and to certain degree.

If we look at any high level athlete, his VO2max most likely does not improve any from when he is say 18 to when he is at the peak of his shape at 25 or 30 while performance might improve by a minute at 5K in the same period despite no changes in VO2max. Obviously, there will be fluctuations depending on the part of the season, but otherwise it's not VO2max that is determining factor (great example is provided in

https://canute1.wordpress.com/2009/11/29/paula-radcliffe-and-running-efficiency/

). If we look at any group of pro distances athletes, we will probably see VO2max ranging from low 70s to high 80s, however, the results will not likely correlate with the VO2max itself, but rather with velocity at VO2max.

This brings me back to the study shared. In the full details of the study (

https://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/fulltext/2007/04000/Aerobic_High_Intensity_Intervals_Improve_V_O2max.12.aspx

), there is a results table 1 (

https://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/_layouts/15/oaks.journals/ImageView.aspx?k=acsm-msse:2007:04000:00012&i=T1-12&year=2007&issue=04000&article=00012&type=Fulltext

) where we have all the changes for subject groups. While the highest increases in VO2max are indeed for the groups 3/4 where VO2max intervals were used in training. The running economy improves the most in the lactate threshold training group. To me that provides some answers on why Ingebrigtsens training is working. Then again, I am sort of biased as I am threshold training proponent. I think there are some links to studies done on kenyan runners in Marius Bakannen site, where studies identify, that they do lots of threshold running while running by feel.

To clarify, I am not against VO2max work, there is a place and time for it. However, for more than moderately trained runners, who have reached close to their max VO2max, threshold training should be more beneficial as it would increase running economy more than VO2max would. It is also less taxing and it's should be harder to burn yourself with threshold work. There might be more benefits for 3K/5K runners though, as their running economy might benefit just as much from VO2max work, as this would be their race pace or close to race pace work.

How’d the weekend go?

Week Ending in 4/6/19

Sunday: 6.1 miles easy @ 7:30 pace on the treadmill. Snowing out

Monday: 5x800m + 4x200m all with 2.5min rest

2:29, 2:28, 2:27, 2:29, 2:28

28.4, 27.8, 27.4, 26.8

Tuesday: 8.7 miles easy @ 7:26 pace

Wednesday: 4 mile fartlek of 60s hard, 30s easy. avg 5:50 pace. + Lifting

Thursday: 6.1 miles easy @ 7:22 pace

Friday: 4 miles easy pre meet

Saturday 800m in 1:57.26 season best for third place + 200m PR in 24.26.

Week Total: 41.4 miles

I'll start by saying that I appreciate the productive discussion about vo2 max and all that above. I've always struggled with what my vo2max pace should be since I drop off even after 800m as the distance goes up. I would usually use my 3k or 5k fitness to determine LT and vo2, but if we go by the 6-8min race pace rule of thumb for vo2max pace, then it would be a bit faster than what my 3k says it should be. So should I be doing 1000m repeats at 3:12-3:15 to get the benefits, or 2:55-3:00? Because obviously the latter is way tougher. Anyways,

I honestly felt pretty crappy all week. I felt very sub par doing those 800m reps on monday. I was hoping to cut down the pace after the first one but it was basically all I could do to hold pace on that day.

I did not have time to get to a track on Wednesday, so I opted for a fartlek. It was way tougher than it looks on paper, but I'm happy with the effort.

I work night shift and I had to work an extra shift to cover for someone before the meet, so I was more tired than usual. I didn't really have expectations going into the race. The gun went off and I honestly felt pretty flat and uncomfortable from the get go. I was ~28 at 200m which was fine but I thought I picked it up and only made it through 400m at 57-58, and from there I felt mentally out of it. I continued to go through the motions and had a decent last 100m, but it just wasn't a great day. Physically I give it a C+, but mentally it was a C- or a D. But It was a season best technically, and I'm hoping that since I was able to run a SB feeling crappy, that bigger things are coming in the next couple weeks.

I felt very sick for 30min after the race but decided to check in for the 200m anyways, which I'm glad I did. I did not use blocks because although I used to be pretty good at them, I haven't touched them in almost 3 years, so I figured it wasn't worth the trouble. My start was trash but my last 100m was good. 24.26 is technically an official PR, but I had run faster than that in practice many times the year I ran 1:52, so it isn't necessarily indicative of anything. But since the 200m is one of the few races I can actually run after the 800m at most meets, I'll probably continue to run 200m races for fun and see if I can crack under 24 officially.

Tentative race schedule:

4/13, 4/20, 5/3, 5/10.

The meet on 5/10 requires a real seed time that was run this season, so I want to get a decent seed time for it. So I'm not sure what I will be racing at the above meets, except that I will for sure be racing the 800m on 4/13.

How went the race?

bump

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Alright, did some serious stalking...and it seems TAR got a few PR's!

4/13 race:

800m in 1:57.34

200m in 24.14

4/20 race:

400m in 51.63

prettycreepy wrote:

Alright, did some serious stalking...and it seems TAR got a few PR's!

4/13 race:

800m in 1:57.34

200m in 24.14

4/20 race:

400m in 51.63

Thanks for the update! looks like he's set himself up for some fast 4/8 times in the coming months

Week Ending in 4/13

Sunday Hilly 9 miler. Last few miles around 6:20 pace.

Monday 6.2 miles @ 6:40 pace + Lifting

Tuesday Off

Wednesday Parking lot workout. Went to the track but there was a week day meet going on.

10min tempo @ 5:24 pace

2x90s @ ~4:40 pace

2x60s @ 4:20 pace

4x30s @ ~3:55 pace

90s rest for all.

Thursday 6.7 miles easy + 5x60m hill sprints

Friday 5.1 miles easy

Saturday 800m race in 1:57.34 for 1st and 200m in 24.14

Weekly Mileage 39 miles

The above week was actually pretty subpar. I had a bigger track workout planned but had to improvise. On paper the parking lot workout doesn't look all that good but it was pretty tough.

The race Saturday felt a lot better than the previous week's race. I got caught up pretty bad from 250-400m, and I also thought we were going a little quicker, but I went out in about 60. I made a pretty hard move at 500m and slowly passed kids until the finish line where I outleaned someone by about a tenth for the win. The 200m was okay. Used blocks but my legs were jello still since it was only 40 minutes after the 800m. Kinda windy too.

60/57 splits for the 800, so I know I have some faster times in me.

Week Ending in 4/20

Sunday Off. Was fully intending on running but I procrastinated and a monster storm / tornados came through, so I just ended up taking the day off.

Monday 11.2 miles @ 7:24 pace + 4 painful strides after.

Tuesday 3x(600m, 300m) + 4x150m with 3min rest for all.

1:38, 45, 1:35, 45, 1:36, 45, 20, 20, 20, 20.

Wednesday 4.7 miles @ 7:35 pace

Thursday 8x0.4mi @ 5:4X pace with 45s rest. Did a small loop down the road from my house. short 50m hill at the start of each loop then flat or gradual down the rest of the loop.

Friday 4.2 miles @ 7:40 pace + strides

Saturday 400m race in 51.63 for 4th pace.

This week was okay. My hamstrings, especially the right one, was tight all week since that 200m race last week. I could have definitely went faster on those 150s but I didn't want to strain the hammie. The 600s and 300s were actually easier than I thought they'd be. My stomach wasn't doing great but I otherwise felt smooth. Thursday was unseasonably warm. I was going to do a straight 20min tempo and some hills but it was about 80 degrees compared to the usual 45-55 degrees it had been, so I broke it up into cruise intervals on a slightly hilly loop.

My hamstring was still pretty sore going into the race Saturday. I didn't use blocks because I didn't want to aggrivate it at all, and I wasn't sure how the race was going to go. It was pretty chilly and kinda wet out all morning, so all in all I had low expectations for the race. I ran hard, died pretty bad the last 50m but 51.63 is technically a PR, and probably puts me at 50.XX high or 51 low for a 4x4 split, which is slower than my 1:52 year but not too far off. I was also going to do the 200 but I scratched that to save my hammie.

Weekly Mileage 38 miles

Week Ending in 4/27

Sunday 8.2 miles @ 7:19 pace

Monday Fartlek. 4x2min @ 5:20 pace with 1min jog rest, then 4 shorter faster repeats of varying length and rest in true fartlek fashion.

Tuesday 4.7 miles easy @ 7:26 pace

Wednesday 500m, 400m, 300m with 6min rest.

71, 55, 42.

Thursday 5.1 miles @ 7:28 pace

Friday Mini cutdown workout on treadmill.

1600, 1200, 800, 400, 6x50m sprints

5:30, 3:45, 2:19, broke treadmill.

Saturday 3 miles easy

Weekly Mileage 41 miles

All in all a decent week. I felt tired and unmotivated Monday, so I'm glad to get any kind of workout in before I went to work. Wednesday's workout was a success. It's nothing impressive considering the long rest, but the goal was to run at 1:54 pace or faster for it all and smoothly as possible. I went out a little too slow in the 500m and my splits were 29, 42 for the 200/300, but I felt relaxed. The end of the 400m was a little tough, and the 300m wasn't bad but I was hurting afterwards.

Friday I was originally going to do a short tempo and some hills but it was about 38 degrees and raining, so I just hit up one of my old colleges gym treadmills. I felt really good on the first three reps, but about 10 seconds into the 400m the treadmill overheated and slowed way down, so I just added on two extra 50m sprints that I did in the gym.

Week Ending in 5/4/19

Sunday 8.7 miles easy @ 7:28 pace

Monday Hard 1000m, 5min rest, then 100m, 150m, 200m, 150m, 100m with 2.5min rest.

2:36, 13.5, 19, 25.5, 20, 13.0

Tuesday 6.4 miles easy @ 7:48 pace

Wednesday 3.5 miles + 5x60m hill sprints

Thursday 4.2 miles easy + dynamics and strides

Friday 800m race in 1:56.17 for 2nd place.

Saturday 10min shakeout run

Weekly mileage: 34 miles

All in all a good week. Came back from my hard track workout last week to get a solid over-distance effort in then some ~400m pace stuff. Everything Monday would have been faster, but it started raining and getting pretty cold and windy shortly after I got to the track, but it was the only time of the day I could make it, so I had to make do. The hard 1000m rep was splits of 29, 59, 1:31, 2:04, 2:36. I wanted to get out well and suffer the last half, but I was struggling mentally after about 500m. I finished out the rep but could have run it much faster. The shorter reps were okay. Just some turnover work, especially with the weather.

The race Friday went pretty well. Ran a season best by 1.1 seconds. It was good weather; cloudy and 60 degrees with a slight breeze. My goal was to get out a little more agressively than I have been. I'm not actually sure of my splits, but I heard around 27 for 200m, and I moved up a bit from there, so I imagine I was ~56 through 400m. No idea what my 600m time was but at that point I was in 5th and I felt like we kind of lagged a bit. I felt good enough to make some passes and had a decent last 100m. Happy with the effort. My last 800m race of this 'season' is going to be this upcoming Friday. All in all I am content with having run 1:56 or even 1:57 since I haven't broken 1:58 in 3 years, but we'll see if I can squeeze anything faster this week. I'll give a rundown of my thoughts on the season and where I'm at, as well as future plans next week.

Are you ever gonna bring mileage back up? It seems that was what got you to 1:52 in the first place and all these sub 50 mile weeks don't seem to be as productive.. not a bad season considering though. I think you have a ton of room for improvement, even sub 1:50! Good luck!

Week ending in 5/11/19

Sunday 8.7 miles @ 7:02 pace. Last few miles at 6:2X pace. Beautiful day.

Monday Last light workout. 1.1 mile tempo @ 5:45 pace + 4x15s at 12.5 100m pace (on the roads).

Tuesday 4 miles easy @ 7:30 pace

Wednesday 3 miles easy + 5x60m hill sprints

Thursday 3.6 miles + strides

Friday Allegheny Invite 800m. 1st place 1:55.69

Saturday Off.

Week Total: 28 miles

Well my last race of my 'season' was Friday. There's not too many other summer track races in the local area I can do without driving 8 hours towards NYC / The East Coast.

The race itself went pretty well. I actually did not feel well all day leading up to it. I felt light headed and weak. A couple guys scratched so my heat only had 5 guys in it, which was kind of nice. I got out okay and went through in 28 then passed a guy at 300m. Went through 400m in 57 and just felt out of it and tired, but I tried to make myself keep pushing and stay with the 3 guys infront of me. Came through 600m in 1:26 and then tried to push hard down the home straight. I passed 3rd and 2nd place and realized I had a chance to win and nabbed the W in the last 20m. Was surprised at the time. It was kind of chilly and pretty windy (50 degrees F with 15mph winds), not bad, but certainly not ideal.

All in all I am pretty happy with how my season turned out. I ran my 4th, 6th, 9th, 10th, and 11th fastest 800m times and some okay 200m and 400m races. My summer and fall training was abysmal and I've been battling some nagging minor injuries on my lower legs. I think I squeezed every bit of fitness I had out of myself in these races.

Looking ahead, I certainly want my overall volume to be higher, especially this summer. The goal is to build up and work a lot on threshold training and volume this summer with occasional sprint workouts and consistent lifting. I don't have a specific target race but I'm looking to target something in August or early September. I help coach XC in the fall and with work it's hard for me to get super meaningful training in that time of the year, so I will try to run my peak race early in XC season, then take my break and bike with the kids I coach and do some shorter runs. After XC season is over I'll build back up a bit and target some longer races indoors. Hopefully some fast miles and maybe some 3ks and 1ks. I know that my endurance is definitely lacking and something I need to address, even for the 800m. I plan on keeping in touch and working on my top speed a bit, but the focus will be endurance. If I can run some fast miles in January and February, I can pretty easily move into 800m training from there for the outdoor season.

All of this is pretty far away, so I don't want to get too ahead of myself. I'm taking a week or so off from running and doing some biking and core. I will keep this updated weekly as I did before, even if my training will be pretty boring and lackluster for the next month or so.

Really good. You can do this, you really can.

Congrats on solid season and last race as well! Considering the circumstances, it was probably as good as it gets and it definitely shows how far away you are from your potential.

I really like your plans for off season, working on two far ends of the spectrum (endurance/volume and max speed). I think it should well equip you to run PR in 800. Come season, you will be ready to gradually move to more specific stuff with vo2max and then lactate buffering sessions. Higher volume should help you with faster recovery as well.

One thing, don't be afraid to take whole week or even two off and build back up slowly. As you said, some niggles are here and there, so it's important to be healthy at the start and stay healthy throughout.

Good luck!

Week ending in 5/18/19

Sunday Off.

Monday Off.

Tuesday 7.4 mile bike ride @ 15.1 mph and 152 avg HR

Wednesday 15.8 mile bike ride @ 16.1mph and 147 avg HR

Thursday Off

Friday 18.8 mile bike ride @ 15.8mph and 152 avg HR

Saturday 2.4 miles @ 7:40 pace.

Saturday was my first day of running after a week off. I've started to add in some biking to help assist with a little aerobic fitness, to work on higher cadences, to supplement extra volume as I buildup my running volume, and just to switch things up and keep myself entertained. I'll probably run 20 something miles for my first full week back with a day or two off and hopefully bike a few times. As I start to get into more running I'll probably just bike 1-2 times a week for an hour minimum, with occasionally longer rides. My bike is a mediocre old hybrid. Much better for the roads than a mountain bike but I'd get dropped by anyone with a real road bike. But it's good enough to get the HR up.

OldFish. wrote:

Congrats on solid season and last race as well! Considering the circumstances, it was probably as good as it gets and it definitely shows how far away you are from your potential.

I really like your plans for off season, working on two far ends of the spectrum (endurance/volume and max speed). I think it should well equip you to run PR in 800. Come season, you will be ready to gradually move to more specific stuff with vo2max and then lactate buffering sessions. Higher volume should help you with faster recovery as well.

One thing, don't be afraid to take whole week or even two off and build back up slowly. As you said, some niggles are here and there, so it's important to be healthy at the start and stay healthy throughout.

Good luck!

Also, thank you to you and the other poster for the support.

Despite the niggles, i'm happy I was able to get through some decent mid distance workouts and not really have anything get worse. I've also noticed that days off don't really seem to help much, which is why I think it's just some minor PTT. I need to be better about rehabbing and strengthening it I think.

Bump

Bump. How has the summer training been going?

is TAR update?