My quest for sub 1:50 in the 800m

Post Grad wrote:

I have to agree that doubling at your mileage is foolish. You really shouldn't double until you hit about 70 miles or so a week. A runner at your level should be able to handle 8-10 mile runs pretty easily. Doing two short runs a day is not the same as doing one solid distance run. Running recovery pace a few days a week is good but try getting more of your runs closer to 7 flat. Also, anything above 6 minute pace is NOT a tempo. Try 5:40 or faster and make sure you include a long run every week of at least 20% of your week's mileage.

Alright, listen up

1) did you not see my previous post about building up quickly? It'll be easy now that i'm used to doing doubles. Last summer I was doing mostly singles in 55-65mpw because I sucked at getting up in the morning. I have a way better setup for success this way.

2) I can handle the 8-10 mile runs easily normally. Maybe I could now, but I'm getting over an annoying achilles injury and I've had trouble with injuries the past year. I know what I'm doing with my runs and everything is going accordingly so far.

3) so an 8 miler at 6:00 pace isn't a tempo for a 4:30+ miler? That's 8 miles at marathon pace for a mid distance runner, that's a solid tempo. Tempo isn't "one hour race pace", that is lactate threshold as defined by a few coaches (daniels, etc). Tempo is basically any distance run from ~10k pace to ~ marathon pace. People use the word tempo to mean any of these difference paces. Running hard sub 5:40 pace for every single tempo weekly for 3-5 miles would not help me as much as running varying tempos from 5:30 pace to 6:20 pace of varying distances. Also, what is 7:00 pace doing for me that 7:20-7:35 isn't? My heart rate is almost no different, I'm just putting more stress on my legs while I build up mileage and while I'm (going to be) doing a lot of various tempos.

4) I will be adding in long runs every other week with a medium long run on the inbetween weeks. I have had a lot of previous success off of basically no long runs or very occasional ones, but I would like to incorporate more long runs since I am doubling much more now.

Not meant to be an attack, but you seem to think you know what you're talking about and normally your plan wouldn't be bad, but it is a very generic plan without a whole lot of thought for a specific runner in a specific scenario. My training will be much different in a months time. I appreciate your guys comments, though, and enjoy the feedback and hope it continues as I progress throughout the summer.

I'm not trying to bash your training. I read your improvement in the 800m and was very impressed. You definitely have the speed to go 1:50, so I was merely trying to suggest runs that would help your endurance. According to Daniels, "marathon pace" for a 4:30 miler is 5:40 and "threshold" is 5:24. I understand the distinction and if you wanted to go longer maybe slow it down to 5:50 or so. Even training for the 800 these tempos will help tremendously, and so will consistent long runs.

ThatAverageRunner, I'm not sure about how your endurance is, but if you wanted to pull a Steve Magness you could run sub-4:00. With 49 second 400 speed, it is within reach. However, pulling a Steve Magness involves 100mpw base training, and 80mpw in season, and that is predicated upon staying healthy. I'm guessing you are about 24-25, so it's still within reach. It would truly be a testament to hard work and the power of Letsrun.com if you did it, especially considering your progress since first posting here.

"1st year Post Collegiate

I didn’t really take much of a break after track season senior year because I was so amped up about how track season ended. I think this was mistake #1. I got back into training and made it up to consistent 60mpw with some sprint work and tempos. During the first part of summer I PR’d in the 5k and 15k with 16:10 and 52:40 but I also developed Achilles tendinopathy that I have to this day. I have always been able to run through it but I have not been able to shake the injury. Let’s just fast forward a bit. I had decent winter training but I had an injury scare that required me to take 4 days off of running in February, and I think this hurt me mentally more than anything. I never got my mileage back up and I wasn’t getting in quality workouts. I ended up getting strep throat in March and this pretty much did me in. I ran 4 outdoor track meets and ran 51.8 in the open 400m, and 2:02, 1:58.3 and 1:58.4 and I have now packed it in and am taking a week break from running."

Right, you should take several weeks for recovery after a hard training and racing season. You are just tired, mentally and physically with the nagging injury. 4 days off means nothing in a normal situation. You just have to really recover from the injury and general fatigue. When you are healthy again and feel ready to start the progressive hard training again, there´s no reason that you can´t become as fast or faster than you were. Keep in mind that you have to be quite fast from the 400 to 5k or so, the combo of decent speed and endurance was the reason behind the past 800m success in your case, I believe. And finally; learn from your mistake, train hard but take the days off and easy days-weeks when needed. Otherwise you´ll not get the full benefits from the hard work.

Base training key points for the 800m

-Weekly sprints up to 150-200m (full recovery), strides and weights for running efficiency + anaerobic capacity (alactic-glycolytic), helps to avoid injuries too

-Progressive mileage at a level that you still recover, take the days off + down weeks if needed

-Don´t dig deep in the base phase on workouts

Pre-season

-Some hard workouts to get ready to race (anaerobic power), a bit lower mileage, otherwise quite normal training

Season

-Racing at various distances in the early season

-Finetuning (speed and endurance in balance?)

-Use it or lose it (maintain what you´ve built)

About doubles, I disagree that you have to be at ~70mpw or so until you can start doing them. More frequent training is a stimulus and a good way to increase the quality of training. You´re an 800m runner. Even a short morning run works for the basic endurance and prepares you to a possible evening workout, or an easy evening shake out run is great after workouts. The overall mileage too will probably be higher than if doing just singles. A weekly long run is a great addition to the program to ensure that the basic endurance is going strong.

Good feedback, but you are HERE asking for feedback and advice so unless you've somehow cracked the code, I would steer clear of admitting 100% confidence in your plan until you actually hit the times you are shooting for.

That said, I mentioned the issue of doing all singles up to a certain mileage threshold because of the obvious muscular and aerobic benefit of doing single,longer runs over shorter doubles. Shorter doubles just don't give you nearly the same stimulus (heart rate, muscular activation etc.) as longer single runs do and since you aren't really doing any workouts (no track work), your everyday runs are essentially your workouts. As a result, I would think that you would want to build a base garnered by the highest quality runs you can so that you protect yourself from overextending in the future when you start to hit the track hard (where you body relies on your aerobic work). Personally, I think it appears as sort of a risky shortcut to start with shorter doubles throughout and build up to longer doubles without ever having done any longer mileage weeks (55-60) with a majority of singles (to toughen your legs up). I mean, realistically, besides building an aerobic base, your base work's main purpose is to callus your body (muscles etc) so that you can draw on that base when your intensity increases.

Also, I would agree that 6:00 pace isn't a tempo pace for a 4:30+ miler...I mean, didn't you already run faster than 4:30 in the mile to begin with~4:08 (1500m) is equivalent to 4:25-4:26 no? Plus, I think it is clear that you never ran a mile race up to your potential based on your 800m time which could just be due to a lack of racing opportunities etc. Do you realize how large a range 10K-Marathon pace is? You can't just equate tempo pace to that huge range with no reference to your own goal. I'd also disagree that a 3-5 mile tempo at 5:40ish pace would not benefit you as much as varying distances up to 6:20 pace. I mean, why do you need to tempo more than 5 miles as an 800m runner anyway? And you can totally do this type of run once a week~you're telling me you can't handle this when your only other runs are easy runs? That's pretty much the upper threshold of most recommended tempo runs for middle distance guys unless you're a pure 1500m guy. Again, this is just my opinion based off what I have experienced, read, and heard.

Here is another thread that summarizes some good points regarding tempos:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2505616

To me, you want to be alternating between a steady state tempo (longer than 25 minutes) at a slower pace and a faster "tempo" pace of 25 minutes or less (3-4+ miles) at a faster pace. I would still argue that it wouldn't be a bad plan to do strictly shorter 3-5 mile tempos every week at a faster pace, but the longer, steady state ones do have a benefit which is what I am assuming you mean when you are talking about alternating tempo runs (I would still in no way go slower than 6:00 pace).

For Achilles, do eccentric heel drops, they really help.

First off, stop listening to all these goofs telling to you run 1000 miles per week. You are trying to do a 1:49 800, not a 5k. Get your butt on the track and do more 200s, 500s, and 1000s.

@nowuhavemyattention and postgrad You're right. I wasn't meaning to say my plan is 100% perfect etc. I was just trying to say that I am trying this plan that is a mix of things that I have done well In the past and things I need to work on.

I agree that some longer runs will be needed, and I will be sprinkling those in. I won't simply be running 5/5 every day to hit a 70 mile week. Maybe some 4/6's and maybe some 3/8 or 2/10 doubles. And I will be adding in long runs too. My goal is to just build endurance and maybe some top speed this summer. I may race an XC race or a road race in the fall, then take a little break in October before I am back at it for track. My workouts and tempos will progress accordingly.

and you're right that I could have run way faster (probably around 4:00 by my guesses) in the 1500m at the end of my 800m PR year, but I'm not near 4:30 mile shape right now. Longer tempos have worked for me in the past and I will continue to do them to really work on endurance. so the 5-9 milers at around 6:00 pace will continue. As the season goes on I will do less of those and more and more shorter faster tempos. I also plan on tossing in cruise intervals at around 10k-15k pace too to get some faster endurance work in. The discussion of what tempos I do when and the optimal training will be more relevant once I'm into it a little more. And from now on when I do a longer tempo, I'll describe whether it was just a random steady state type run or my goal was to do a tempo at half marathon pace or whatever it was.

@ UNO Thanks for the advice and comments. I agree with your statement about the stimulus doubles provide, and I will be working on various aspects of sprint speed up to 800m speed this summer, with less of an emphasis on really hard long reps @ 800m pace and more of a neurological stimulus and top speed training.

power of letsjog Thanks for the support. Haha I don't forsee myself ever breaking 4 for the mile but I do plan on getting somewhere close to 80mpw this summer hopefully. I'm turning 23 this summer, so still pretty young, even though this past year my body didn't quite feel that way.

@gulanrapp I have been doing them. I've been adding weight and my Achilles has been feeling better. It's not perfect and does still hurt first thing in the morning, but it nary bothers me on runs anymore. I will work on getting more consistent with the heel drops and see if I can fully kick it soon.

@everyone Thank you all for the advice and constructive criticisms. I take it all into account even if I disagree with what you say. That's the beauty of running. There's no one single surefire way to do things, and I think I'm on a good path this base phase, but I will always be looking for new advice or suggestions also. Just a student of the sport. Thank you all for following along. Will update again Saturday evening or Sunday morning.

I think a big point that a lot of people in here are missing is the fact that you have to train at the current fitness that you are in. If you make your training paces off of race times that you haven't hit in years then you're only going to bury yourself into a rut or hurt yourself. So if you think you're in 4:40 shape (I would assume you're in better shape than that) then run according to that. Then as you progress you will drop your training paces. You might not have races to tell you your progress because you're only doing longer road races but you should be able to have an idea of your fitness based on how your workouts feel. Best of luck!

Week ending in 5/27

Sunday AM 2 miles @ 7:40 pace

PM 6 miles @ 6:10 pace. (6:21, 6:10, 6:04, 6:11, 6:07, 6:05) little warmup and cool down

Monday 3 miles easy @ 7:55 pace on the trails

Tuesday AM 3 miles @ 7:46 pace

PM Hill circuit. Steep 40m hill. Will detail below

Wednesday AM 2.3 miles @ 7:36 pace

PM 7 miles @ 7:20 pace

Thursday PM 5.3 miles @ 7:04 pace

Friday AM 3.5 miles @ 7:07 pace

PM 6 miles @ 6:52 pace. Last few miles sub 6:30 + 4x80m strides @ 800m pace

Saturday 10.2 miles @ 6:58 pace. Half on roads half on trails.

Week total: 54 miles

Not a bad week. Only doubled 4 times but that's not the end of the world. Felt pretty chill on that steady state run Sunday and the hill circuit was good. The hill circuit was:

Sprint, high knees, sprint, bounding, sprint, singe leg hops, sprint, bounding, sprint, single leg hops...all up the hill. 1 min rest after the sprint, 3 min rest before the sprint.

The long run was okay. The end of it kinda sucked, but I wasn't really tired or anything, just bored. Felt pretty easy to run sub 7 pace. Seems like my paces are starting to drop a little already. My plan is to be around 60 miles this next week then take my first down week, then I think i'll be ready to build into the 70's.

I know that you have a sound training plan, but take a look at The Athlete Special on YouTube if you haven't already. It's a guy at Georgetown who runs right around 1:50 and he posts bits of his training there. It could give you a couple of ideas, and at the very least it's entertaining.

Hi ThatAverageRunner. I have read both your threads and personally think they are great! I am a 14 year old 2:03 800m runner from the UK (yes I have no experience) but in the summer you're supposed to lower the mileage and focus on developing speed, right? The summer sesson is mainly focused on track sessions, if you or anyone could provide a 2 week schedule where there is a 800m on the final Saturday would be great. I do have a coach but I wouldn't really call him a coach. All he does is tell me what sessions to do on a Tuesday and Thursday (thats what days we train on the track)

Aiming For Sub 2 wrote:

Hi ThatAverageRunner. I have read both your threads and personally think they are great! I am a 14 year old 2:03 800m runner from the UK (yes I have no experience) but in the summer you're supposed to lower the mileage and focus on developing speed, right? The summer sesson is mainly focused on track sessions, if you or anyone could provide a 2 week schedule where there is a 800m on the final Saturday would be great. I do have a coach but I wouldn't really call him a coach. All he does is tell me what sessions to do on a Tuesday and Thursday (thats what days we train on the track)

It probably depends on where you're at geographically and what level of runner you are. In the United States, unless you are an elite level runner trying to qualify for USAs and/or Worlds, the summer is a base phase to get ready for the XC season in the fall. Most university track meets are in the winter and spring, with some in the summer, and more so if you're a professional.

And I think you should listen to your coach. Him telling you two sessions a week is probably good, and your job is to run some mileage between, maybe lift and do some sprints, but otherwise your main job is to recover for those sessions and races. And a two week schedule at the end of season (when you are peaking) will look very different than a two week schedule mid-late season when you are getting the really hard 800m pace workouts done.

adgjlsfhk wrote:

I know that you have a sound training plan, but take a look at The Athlete Special on YouTube if you haven't already. It's a guy at Georgetown who runs right around 1:50 and he posts bits of his training there. It could give you a couple of ideas, and at the very least it's entertaining.

I'm aware of him and actually subscribed to him. I enjoy his content. I may take some of his faster pace workouts, but he is certainly more talented than me (he only runs 50-60mpw). Which is why he was able to go and be a part of Georgetown's team. Thank you for the suggestion, though.

Week ending in: 6/3

Sunday AM 2.5 miles @ 8:00 pace

PM 4 miles @ 7:30 pace

Monday AM 1.75mi warmup, 5k road race in 16:55, 4mi cool down.

PM 2.3 miles @ 6:57 pace

Tuesday AM 3 miles @ 7:47 pace

PM 6 miles on trails @ 7:30 pace

Wednesday AM 3 miles @ 8:01 pace on trails

PM Hill sprints. 1.75mi warmup, 6x45m hill sprints with 3.5 minute rest. Jogged 2 minutes during the rests, 2mi cool down

Thursday AM 2.8 miles @ 7:31 pace

PM 6.4 miles @ 7:30 pace

Friday AM off.

PM 5 miles @ 7:23 pace on the treadmill + First lift of the season.

Saturday AM 1mi warmup, Cruise Intervals. 6x800m @ LT with 200m jog rest. 2:48, 2:47, 2:48, 2:48, 2:49, 2:45. 1 mile cool down. Cinder track.

PM 6 miles @ 6:35 pace

Week total: 61.1 miles

Overall great week. I ran that 5k on a semi-difficult course. Took 2nd and ran 16:55, which I was okay with. I ran pretty relaxed and smooth the whole way. Splits of 5:20 (slight uphill), 5:35 (big hill and partially down the big hill), and 5:2X mid (slight downhill). I was feeling it the last half mile, but I also haven't been running a whole lot yet. I think it was a good first indicator of my fitness and gives me some stepping stones to achieve and work with. My legs were a little achey the following feel days which was okay since I just logged a little bit of mileage. I ran a simple hill sprint workout on Wednesday. Going to start getting a little more volume in those and toss on some drills/plyos like bounding and high knees to those hill workouts.

I also did my first lift in a couple months on Friday. I just did some various things like incline bench, some light but deep squats, some core and hip stuff, etc. Pretty sore the next day but nothing crazy.

The workout Saturday morning went well. Just went to an old cinder track for the workout. It was a little tough, but also very manageable considering the short, active rests. I am looking forward to progressing with these types of workouts throughout the summer. This was my highest mileage week in quite some time and I'm happy with it. I am taking a planned down week this upcoming week including a planned day off on Sunday after the high volume and decent quality of Saturday.

Thanks for following along!

You run 49.x in the 400. If you run sub-1:50, you may as well shoot for sub-4:00. It seems a long way off, but if you do the math, your 400 and goal 800 set you up well for a 4:00 mile.

Week ending in 6/10:

Planned down week.

Sunday Planned off day

Monday AM 2.4 miles @ 7:30 pace

PM 3 miles @ 7:10 pace on the treadmill + Lifting

Tuesday AM Hilly long run 11 miles @ 7:20 pace.

PM off

Wednesday AM off

PM 6.5 miles @ 7:04 pace. Partially on trails. 4x60m strides after.

Thursday AM 2.5 miles @ 7:50 pace on trails + Lifting

PM Hill sprints. 30m, 30m, 40m, 40m, 50m, 50m, 60m, 60m. Started at 2min rest and increased ~30 seconds each set. + speed/footwork ladder work

Friday AM off

PM 4 mile tempo @ 5:44 pace. (5:46, 5:44, 5:48, 5:40).

Saturday AM 4.7 miles @ 7:45 pace on trails. Recovery.

PM 3.1 miles @ 7:25 pace plus light strides.

Week total: 43 miles

My down week went pretty well. I would have liked to double more, even just little 2 mile runs, but a little extra recovery won't hurt since that's part of the goal of having built in lower weeks. My long run was nice. I drove out to my old college and ran some nice back-road loops out there. Thursday was a tough day on my legs, but they recovered quite well from it. Just acquired a small (about 10-12 step) footwork / speed ladder that I will be messing around with to work on foot speed and coordination. I'd like to add it in once or twice a week after easy runs.

My legs were a little tight and achy for the tempo on Friday due to the previous day. My original plan was to do the tempo Saturday but Friday was about 10 degrees cooler than Saturday, so I moved it up for the more optimal weather. The last mile or so of the tempo was a grind, but I stayed consistent the whole way and I'm happy with it at this time of the year. Hoping to progress a bit within this next month. I plan on going to the mid 60's and low 70's for the next three weeks before I take another down week. I might do some light mile-800m pace work on the track next week, along with some steady distance running / long tempos.

Week ending in: 6/17

Sunday AM 3.4 miles @ 7:38 pace

PM 6.2 miles on trails @ 7:34 pace

Monday Medium long run 10.7 miles on trails @ 7:28 pace

Tuesday Afternoon 2.5 miles @ 7:36 pace after work

PM 5 miles @ 7:24 pace + Lifting

Wednesday AM 2 miles @ 7:33 pace

PM 6.5 miles @ 7:02 pace on trails. Pushed ~6-8 steep hills during the run

Thursday AM 20min tempo @ 5:58 pace + 5x200m cutting down from mile to 800m pace. 34, 34, 32, 30, 30. 100m walk rest.

PM 4.6 mile steady run @ 6:33 pace. Started at low 7 pace and slowly cut to low 6 pace + Lifting lower body

Friday 8.4 miles easy on trails @ 7:30 pace. + Upper body lift.

Saturday AM 2.9 miles @ 7:14 pace

PM 5 miles @ 7:48 pace + Strides

Week total: 63 miles

To start, this week was hot. The weather has been relatively mild up until this week, and now the heat and humidity are here in full force. It certainly slowed down paces a little, but that's okay. I wanted to get a few more miles in this week but 63 isn't terrible. Will aim for high 60-low 70 this up coming week. On Saturday I'm running a 5 mile road race but I'm not tapering for it or anything, so we'll see how that goes. At the very least hopefully it'll be a good indicator of my fitness and what not.