This is why you won't be a competitive masters guy if you run heavy miles all your life

Toronto Star:

“When I get out there training on the track I feel the exact same as I did when I was in my 20s,” the 52-year-old Osland said. “The pain is the same, the effort is the same, everything is identical, the only difference is how fast I’m actually going.”

And that does take some getting used to. Just as masters athletes need to include more recovery time in their training schedules, they also need to shift their mindset around what constitutes success.

“When I was young, my first (800-metre) goal was to run under 1 minute, 50 seconds and my next goal was to run under 1:46 to make the Olympic team. Those are goals that I did and I worked hard to get to them. When I first turned 40, my goal was to break two minutes and I did,” Osland said.

“Whether it is 1:50 or two minutes, it’s a barrier that’s there to be broken, all we’re doing is reestablishing our goals and barriers.”

That is the crux of masters athletics.

“So, as I turn 60, my barrier will be something like 2:05.”

Paul Osland

False. Trautmann saved his legs by retiring young before coming back.

meb the master wrote:

Pros whose careers continued past age 40 provide pretty good evidence that it is not impossible to train hard during your younger years and still be a good masters runner. I would consider Meb to be "a competitive masters guy."

It requires smart training, innate durability, and a good bit of luck, but it's not impossible.

I wonder how much PEDs are involved with some of these 50+ master cats who are racing up a storm? 🤔. TRT seems to be the buzzword in the master amateur ranks, and low-T centers are cropping up like there's no tomorrow. And of course the rich dudes can afford high-octane HGH. Something is rotten in Denmark when a 55 yr old does 80 mpw and runs 16 flat for a 5k.

You mean he would have destroyed his legs if he kept running at a high level until age 40, just Lagat, Meb and Abdi destroyed their legs?

PTF wrote:

This is a very interesting account and actually makes a good case for just wow's point. Running 30 mpw is very low mileage...at least to me. In 40 years of running, I don't think I ever ran that little and would have essentially considered it a week off.

Congratulations by the way.

What kinds of times/age grade percentages are you running now?

Smoove wrote:

You mean he would have destroyed his legs if he kept running at a high level until age 40, just Lagat, Meb and Abdi destroyed their legs?

Cells can only divide so many times

Smoove nice job on the come back but I gotta say you are short sighted on this one.

Sixty is about the age the devil knocks to collect on the exuberance of youth.

We can't argue this interesting idea or anecdote our way to understanding. So what entity will finance a study of milage/age vs tendon resiliency? Does a runner wear out proportional to mileage or age out regardless? Can anyone venture to describe an experimental protocol that would give a physical answer?

Tom

Charlie wrote:

As usual the two factors are Genetics and Environment.

Can the aging runner with average genetics train hard without wearing out ?

No...not without exceptional biomechanics or PEDS. Those that continue to train like a madman & race up a storm well into their late 50s & beyond would need exceptional biomechanics and a negative/low injury history. And there's a growing trend of TRT with aging competitive athletes these days (imagine that with all the low-T centers cropping up). Guys in their 60s running 80 mpw & doing sub-3 hr thons are either biomechanically blessed or using PEDs, or both.

Fair enough. I've been wrong lots of times. Just ask my ex-wife!

Just wow... wrote:

Not implying a scientific link between diabetes and running. With running, it's a different pathway to similar changes.

Oh, nice move.

Point to an unrelated study, but wave your hands saying "Here's something unrelated that has absolutely nothing to do with running, but it means the same thing, take my word for it".

Just wow... wrote:

It's not burn out. Rather, it's that the natural pliability, springiness and recoil in your tendons and ligaments (Achilles, plantar fascia, etc.) will be shot from all the cumulative usage. You simply lose your bounce. I've got no data to back it up, but that's my hypothesis. Studies have been done on the Achilles tendons of diabetics vs. normal controls and found changes in the molecular structure of the collagen cross-links to explain such changes in diabetics, which is thought to contribute to their high rate of foot morbidity, leading to conditions like "Charcot foot" (a spontaneous collapse of the foot structure), and forefoot plantar ulcers, although the other major contributor in these situations is peripheral neuropathy.

Even though I am going through exactly what you are referring to it does not explain everyone's experience.

1) There are many streak-runners who can prove that theory wrong. Contact the #1, #2, #3 streak runners in America and they will convince you that you can run for 40+ years and not have the problems you list.

2) The key to maintaining anything is to never stop doing it. I feel that if we were allowed to play as children do our entire live we would not lose those capabilities to be explosive.

3) Body weight is important. The reason why Meb can run like he can is because he is about 4' and 65 pounds. Have you ever seen the guy?

That 85 year old guy is a twig that is why he can still run 3:30. I mean what is he...5'10" 95'? Seriously?

4) Sarcasm aside at some point you have to pay attention to living.

5) When you start to get slower through no fault of your own, and this happens to the best, there is no incentive to keep on running as you did.

So then your theory has to have burnout attached!

6) It's an individual thing. Everyone is different.

Interesting to hear that you "feel the exact same" but the times are slower. I feel just the opposite which makes me believe in the theory that there's only so many miles in your legs. While (only) 48 years old, I've been long-distance racing for 25 years (20 ironman-distance tris, many half ironmans and around 22 marathons). I've slowed down some which is not a probl but my legs feel absolutely shot. The cardio remains and I still love a hard workout but everything in my legs aches.

I have a theory too wrote:

Just wow... wrote:

Not implying a scientific link between diabetes and running. With running, it's a different pathway to similar changes.

Oh, nice move.

Point to an unrelated study, but wave your hands saying "Here's something unrelated that has absolutely nothing to do with running, but it means the same thing, take my word for it".

My point of mentioning the diabetic study is that there is scientific proof, via histologic analysis, that abnormal changes occur in diabetic tendons vs. controls, and I am not implying the same changes in runners, but rather, a similar study could theoretically be done with long-time high volume runners vs. age-matched controls to see if there's a difference, and if so, see exactly what that difference may be.

And why are you reading this arrogant tone into my comments? I didn't say it was the gospel, just my hypothesis.

I shouldn't give a crap, but comments like this are what sour these internet discussions.

I have a theory too wrote:

Just wow... wrote:

Not implying a scientific link between diabetes and running. With running, it's a different pathway to similar changes.

Oh, nice move.

Point to an unrelated study, but wave your hands saying "Here's something unrelated that has absolutely nothing to do with running, but it means the same thing, take my word for it".

Derderian wrote:

Can anyone venture to describe an experimental protocol that would give a physical answer?

Cadavers.

You can find tendon studies done on animals of various ages. Of course if you think humans are not animals you won't be able to draw a parallel.

Yes.

tough to be in your late 50's and get psyched to train to run a mile time 70 seconds slower than your Lifetime PR....

Cumulative miles aren't the reason.

Majority of ex phys professors are hack athletes, lunch time joggers, hard to listen to their rationale...

It's Egun wrote:

Yes.

tough to be in your late 50's and get psyched to train to run a mile time 70 seconds slower than your Lifetime PR....

Not if you really enjoy running and competing, and can dominate your age group to the level you did in your twenties.

Cumulative miles aren't the reason.

What's your evidence?

Majority of ex phys professors are hack athletes, lunch time joggers, hard to listen to their rationale...

This thread is annoying and not evidence based. There area few good points though, the best being that everyone is different as they age and that probably motivation is the first thing to go and that may or may not be linked to inflexible tendons.