What are 400/800 guys doing that 800/1500 guys aren't?

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  • Purresure
    2 years ago 03/22/2017 11:47pm CDT
    re: Missing stats
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    Missing stats wrote:

    Everyone keeps quoting the 45.50 400m rudisha ran... But elsewhere online (not Iaaf's website and im too tired to check) he has a best time of 45.19. the video of part of the race shown during a Kenyan interview on YouTube (again, too tired to find it) shows it at a low-key meet where second place probably ran 47... Anyone who truly believes that Rudisha couldn't go sub 45 if he raced it more often with serious competition is out of their minds. He has probably ran at most 3 400s in the last Olympic quadrennial...

    Are we talking about simultaneous ability or PRs over a lifetime? Think about it.
  • test2
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    2 years ago 03/23/2017 7:15am CDT
    re: Purresure
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    Rudisha's got the 800m WW. To me the question is whether he could get closer to the record in the 400 or the 1500. I tend to think it'd be pretty close, hence I'd call him a 800 specialist. 45.5 is about as far from the 400 WW as a 3:40 is from the 1500m WW. The 45.2 quoted a couple posts ago would be a little closer but it's still not obvious to me that he couldn't run the 1500m equivalent.
  • Speculator Sam
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    2 years ago 03/23/2017 8:21am CDT
    re: ThatAverageRunner
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    Since this conversation is going in a different direction...

    TrackBot! PRs Hicham El Guerrouj
  • TrackBot
    robot
    2 years ago 03/23/2017 8:25am CDT
    re: Speculator Sam
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    PRs for Hicham El Guerrouj:

    800 m (Outdoor): 1:47.18 on 2 Jun 1995
    1000 m (Outdoor): 2:16.85 on 12 Jul 1995
    1000 m (Indoor): 2:20.11+ on 22 Feb 1998
    1500 m (Outdoor): 3:26.00    WR on 14 Jul 1998
    1500 m (Indoor): 3:31.18    WR on 2 Feb 1997
    One Mile (Outdoor): 3:43.13    WR on 7 Jul 1999
    One Mile (Indoor): 3:48.45    WR on 12 Feb 1997
    2000 m (Outdoor): 4:44.79    WR on 7 Sep 1999
    2000 m (Indoor): 5:01.31+ on 23 Feb 2003
    3000 m (Outdoor): 7:23.09    NR on 3 Sep 1999
    3000 m (Indoor): 7:33.73+    NR on 23 Feb 2003
    Two Miles (Indoor): 8:06.61    NR on 23 Feb 2003
    5000 m (Outdoor): 12:50.24 on 12 Jun 2003
    10 km (Outdoor): 36:00 on 6 Jan 2008


    I am a bot. Info: habs.sdf.org/trackbot
  • Speculator Sam
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    2 years ago 03/23/2017 8:36am CDT
    re: ThatAverageRunner
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    Talking about the OP. I suppose it's doable an 4/8 type has access to more speed, which when given the proper endurance and aerobic/anaerobic capacity training would allow for an amazing 800 time. That being said, the half-mile/miler type has slightly stronger slow-twitch muscles which make holding a pace easier than a 4/8 type would, allowing for an amazing 800m time.

    4/8 types would run somewhat less mileage (50-60mpw is a LOT for sprints and 800m training) and more focus on intervals and speed based workouts, which provides ample training stimulus for them since that's what their bodies tend towards. A half-mile/miler gets a better stimulus from including more mileage (60-70 and above) and longer repeats with fewer speed sessions.
  • Star
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    2 years ago 03/23/2017 8:40am CDT
    re: test2
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    Anyone who only competes in the 800 in championships is an 800 specialist.

    But, given the binary choice of labeling an 800m runner either a 400/800 type or 800/1500 type, which would you label Rudisha?
  • Malemute Kid
    2 years ago 03/23/2017 10:53am CDT
    re: test2
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    test2 wrote:

    Rudisha's got the 800m WW. To me the question is whether he could get closer to the record in the 400 or the 1500. I tend to think it'd be pretty close, hence I'd call him a 800 specialist. 45.5 is about as far from the 400 WW as a 3:40 is from the 1500m WW. The 45.2 quoted a couple posts ago would be a little closer but it's still not obvious to me that he couldn't run the 1500m equivalent.

    world wecord?
  • Fast Twitcher
    2 years ago 03/23/2017 11:14am CDT
    re: Star
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    Yes but most likely you were a 48-1:44-3:35 type runner. A true speed based/more fast twitch runner would be more like 46-1:44-3:45
  • ThatAverageRunner
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    2 years ago 03/23/2017 11:26am CDT
    re: toomanyspikes
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    I was making the comparison that a 800/1500 type like Murphy does less mileage than a speedier 800m type like Duane Solomon.

    toomanyspikes wrote:

    ThatAverageRunner wrote:

    The 400/800 guy would likely do less mileage, but even this isn't always true considering Murphy does roughly 50-60mpw,

    Quick note, I'd have to argue that Murphy is NOT a 400/800 guy considering he won the 1500m at NCAAs.

    But on a more related note, I'd have to say that 400/800 guys are more often than not 800m specialists who can move down to the 400 because they have the speed and (fast) training to do so. There seem to be few exceptions to this, although Chris Giesting is a fascinating example. 800/1500 guys are a little more complicated because of the fact that they need speed but also great endurance, whereas a pure 400/800 runner might struggle at 1500m. In my opinion, this makes a man who can run a fast 800m AND a fast 1500m rarer than someone who can run a fast 400m and fast 800m. This is highly debatable, however and I will accept that there are many exceptions and that it may not be right in your view.
  • test2
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    2 years ago 03/23/2017 11:29am CDT
    re: Star
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    Star wrote:

    Anyone who only competes in the 800 in championships is an 800 specialist.

    But, given the binary choice of labeling an 800m runner either a 400/800 type or 800/1500 type, which would you label Rudisha?

    If you force me to assign a binary label then 400/800 given that he's never raced the 15 as far as I can see. But why do we have to associate every 800m runner with a second distance? Not everyone is similarly suited to two distances. I think Rudisha is a prime example of this as he's awesome at 800 but on the world stage would be an also-ran at 400. He isn't a 400/800 guy in the way Coe or Makloufi was/is a 800/1500 guy, that is capable of similar performances at both distances.
  • You asked
    2 years ago 03/23/2017 11:40am CDT
    re: ThatAverageRunner
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    What are 400/800 runners doing? They are deluding themselves into thinking they are special and don't need to run mileage and train as middle distance. They are cheating there potential to be a good mid distance runner to be a mediocre "400/800" guy.

    There is only 1 kiprop and 99% of you would optimize your potential by running 800/1500. But maybe you are that special 1% so go practice out of blocks instead of doing that tempo run.
  • Deanouk
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    2 years ago 03/23/2017 11:47am CDT
    re: cat scratch fever
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    cat scratch fever wrote:

    Star;

    What makes you think Coe was a 400/800 runner? He is not near the top UK rankings for either event in his developmental years.
    Ovett was on these lists (48.4 as a u17, and 1.52.5; later a 47.5 as u20 and 1.45.7) He was a relatively early maturer (vis-a-vis Coe anyway).
    I would call Coe at this point more a 1500/3000 runner (3.45.2/8.14) as a Junior, who isn't under 1.49.2 for 800m at this point. Seems to me, based on "better training for distance runners", that it was the strength work while at Loughborough that developed (adding 10ibs of muscle to his 5'9" frame - 119 to 129) his speed, both in terms of specific training and strength development. Maturing also helped. This environment provided Coe the opportunity (training with sprinters at times as well) to develop areas which were perhaps not available to him earlier.

    You're right. As a teen Coe was a 3000m runner, winning the English Schools 3k title (73 I think), and then a 1500/miler, winning European Junior bronze in 75. At this stage he expected to end up as a 5k guy. It wasn't until the end of 76, when he made a big improvement in his 800 pb, that his father stated something along the lines of, "I think we may have found your event!". It was then, as he was about to go to Loughborough and begin work with George Gandy, that they decided to work on his 800 speed, with a view of improving his ability over 1500m. The 1500 in Moscow was always the end goal from this point.
    What a lot of people aren't aware of, unless they read his autobiography, is that when he first tried athletics as a sport after watching the 68 Olympics, he won his district schools title over 60m and the long jump! He went on to run in the County Champs in the sprints (60yds or 100yds, can't recall the exact distance otomy) and came 3rd. So he always had basic natural speed, that wasn't really revisited until years later, c. 78/79.
    He was never a 400/800 type, but I think his success over the middle distances was due to him being a 'naturally' very good sprinter, who just happened to join a club where he ran a lot of X- country and distance as a teen with much older and bigger guys.

    He is the only man with actual pbs that are sub 47, 1:43 and 3:30.
  • Doing 5x60m instead of 6x300, that’s what
    6 months ago 07/16/2019 2:00am CDT
    re: ThatAverageRunner
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    Sprinting more.
  • 🍺🍺🍺
    6 months ago 07/16/2019 2:08am CDT
    re: Doing 5x60m instead of 6x300, that’s what
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    See here:
    https://beaconhillstriders.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Alberto-Juantorena-Training-for-400m-800m.pdf
  • ThatAverageRunner
    registered
    6 months ago 07/16/2019 2:43am CDT
    re: 🍺🍺🍺
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    Man this thread challenged a lot of people haha
  • SUPERIOR COACH JS
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    6 months ago 07/16/2019 3:42am CDT
    re: ThatAverageRunner
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    Alberto Juantorena,El Caballo, is probably one of the best examples of a typical 400/800 guy.
    https://www.runnerstribe.com/features/el-caballo-training-alberto-juantorena1/

    And Peter Snell a typical 800/1500 "strength" guy with a lot more emphasis on aerobic work.
    https://www.runnersworld.com/advanced/a20783376/how-peter-snell-trained-for-a-wr-1-44-3-on-grass-in-1962/
  • I'm surprised JS!
    6 months ago 07/16/2019 4:51am CDT
    re: SUPERIOR COACH JS
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    SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

    Alberto Juantorena,El Caballo, is probably one of the best examples of a typical 400/800 guy.
    https://www.runnerstribe.com/features/el-caballo-training-alberto-juantorena1/

    And Peter Snell a typical 800/1500 "strength" guy with a lot more emphasis on aerobic work.
    https://www.runnersworld.com/advanced/a20783376/how-peter-snell-trained-for-a-wr-1-44-3-on-grass-in-1962/


    I am quiet surprised Coach JS that you would dare mention anything positive regarding Peter Snell's training for an 800m runner. IMO, if Snell were 20 years old today, he would not be an elite 1500m runner. If Snell were a young man today, he would focus on 800m training. Snell wouldn't train that differently than the way men like Duane Solomon and Johnny Gray trained. If Snell were a young man today and if Snell were an 800m specialist, I am certain he would be a sub-1:43 man.
  • SUPERIOR COACH JS
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    6 months ago 07/16/2019 7:36pm CDT
    re: I'm surprised JS!
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    I'm surprised JS! wrote:

    SUPERIOR COACH JS wrote:

    Alberto Juantorena,El Caballo, is probably one of the best examples of a typical 400/800 guy.
    https://www.runnerstribe.com/features/el-caballo-training-alberto-juantorena1/

    And Peter Snell a typical 800/1500 "strength" guy with a lot more emphasis on aerobic work.
    https://www.runnersworld.com/advanced/a20783376/how-peter-snell-trained-for-a-wr-1-44-3-on-grass-in-1962/


    I am quiet surprised Coach JS that you would dare mention anything positive regarding Peter Snell's training for an 800m runner. IMO, if Snell were 20 years old today, he would not be an elite 1500m runner. If Snell were a young man today, he would focus on 800m training. Snell wouldn't train that differently than the way men like Duane Solomon and Johnny Gray trained. If Snell were a young man today and if Snell were an 800m specialist, I am certain he would be a sub-1:43 man.
    Nice to see that I could surprise you. )) In between these both "extremes" there is of course a lot of other great runners, specialists at 400/ 800 and 800/ 1500.
  • Just a Reminder
    6 months ago 07/16/2019 7:48pm CDT
    re: SUPERIOR COACH JS
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    Reminder, Peter Snell still holds the national record for 800 in New Zealand.
  • SUPERIOR COACH JS
    registered
    6 months ago 07/16/2019 8:06pm CDT
    re: Just a Reminder
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    Just a Reminder wrote:

    Reminder, Peter Snell still holds the national record for 800 in New Zealand.

    Yeah, thats great! Many years..... Did you know that it has been told one of his favorite workouts was 20 x 400m ?