Do all High School coaches overtrain their distance runners?

USATF Level 1 school is a great opportunity for cross-functional learning. Can't recommend it enough. If you're a distance coach, though, you may only get out of it what you want.

You never know what you'll pick up that will be useful in the future. When I took Level 1 I was only concerned with my distance program. 5 years later I was named head track coach and needed to know a lot more than just endurance events. Fortunately I took the Level 2 course the previous summer.

Ironically, in my first 3 years as head coach our school has been represented in the state finals 5 times: a miler (podium), hurdler twice (2 school records) and a thrower twice (state champ). While I'm not a throws coach I am knowledgeable enough to have an intelligent and informed conversation with my state champ without coming across as an idiot. The same can be said with the other disciplines.

When you've been coaching for awhile go back and take Level 2.

You'll discover you're not as good as you thought you were.

[quote]Hooterville wrote:

The bottom line is don't be too hard on your coach. We get miserable pay for what we do. I've spent more in coaching education then I will ever be paid. But that should not be the expectation. I don't blame other coaches for not going on $2000 dollar trips with a week out of work to attend an academy. It has a brutal impact on our personal lives because it is not at all supported by the school districts. So far I have received nothing from our school district to support my education yet they will send teachers to professional development sessions and pay huge money on unproven concepts.

That being said because it had to be, Level 1 was great to give you general knowledge of all of the events. It's a great course for anyone taking on a head coaching track position for that general knowledge.

US Track and Field has an online campus with various courses taught by Christine Brooks. I have taken all of them. I would highly recommend any coach and even athletes that are interested take the course on the energy systems. If you understand it well it can give you an enormous edge on other competitors. Last I checked it costs $75.

I have two level 2 certifications and I'm in the middle of earning a level 3 in sprints. The upper level certifications are significantly more detailed with a stress on general training science. I took an XC specialization course taught by Joe Vigil last spring. I had breakfast with him on the second day. Just Joe and I!! I asked him questions about my team and athletes and he had a lot of advice to give.

To the subject at hand, in our state there are two or three teams that work the kids at too high of a volume for distance runners. Most are cautious and if anything do not train enough. We have a lot of dedicated coaches which oddly enough because the pay is low. They do it out of a love for the sport.

Without thinking too hard about it, here are some issues:

1) Athletes core strength including hip stability muscles are too weak for any volume.

2) Kids are undertrained and over raced. It's not the volume, it's the volume of quality that is causing issues. This includes heavy speed sessions. This is what hurts kids.

3) Attempting to peak kids three times per year (College coaches, most of you are here also). Pick your battles. Indoor should be used to build back.

Your coach might be training your son perfectly and your child is eating junk, not getting sleep, coming to practice not hydrated, etc. We can't do ANYTHING with your child if they do nothing to recover from our workouts. This is where you can help the process. Yes, you...

Be proactive rather than reactive. Maybe your child needs to strengthen his core and stability muscles? Have him evaluated by someone who knows. Get involved with your son to the same level as his coach.

At the very least provide details on here as to why you believe the coach is causing you son to be injured. Make that kind of effort and I might have some positive advice to give.

My 9th grade son is running Varsity, last race was a PR of 17:40. They have 2 young coaches, the head has little running experience but is good at organization, the asst. is right out of college, XC running experience. Both are very rigid and inflexible regarding training and practices. They practice 3:30-5:30 Monday-Friday. Long runs are Wednesdays, my son is running 12-13 miles and is exhausted. He gives it his all because that’s who he is but I’m really worried about him. He barely speaks, he’s falling asleep in the car, he has hours of homework after practice and he doesn’t have the energy to do it but he does because he pushes himself to do it all well. He has straight A’s and taking all AA classes but I don’t think he’s going to be able to maintain all this. He’s grumpy, moody, I think he’s overtraining. When I mentioned it to the coach she said “maybe XC isn’t for him.” I was so angry. What I would expect from a more experienced coach is “It sounds like he needs to cut back a bit on his mileage and get more rest. Why don’t we see how he’s doing with 6-8 mile long runs for a couple of weeks.” What would you recommend? Parents are all concerned about the amount of hours and training in excessive temps, they ran 10-12 miles in 92 degree weather. They refuse to alter long run times to evenings when it’s not so hot, and asked to shorten practice to 1.5 hours for hw considerations and physical rest. We’ve all tried to get the coaches to be flexible with homework passes and maybe a Friday or Monday off every few weeks just to rest but nope. I’m really worried about my son, he just doesn’t seem happy anymore and we still have 3-6 weeks of meets. Thanks for your advice.

quickndirty wrote:

I'd offer the counter that most under train their runners. I'd guess most HS kids are putting in 25-35 mpw. That's not over training.

Also they are training kids to win meets NOW. You know how many kids don't show up to track practice until March? So how is the coach going to spend all season sending that kid out on slow distance runs or are you going to get them ready for the season at hand?

Yes...it is, if a kid doesn't have the good genetics for distance running and is injury prone! A lot of these darn coaches have the one-size-fits-all mentality! My kid has poor running genetics and a significant injury history, therefore, he's only able to handle 15-20 mpw max! But these hot shot coaches think all kids can do high mileage. My kid goes to a school with a low participation rate for XC. He doesn't play football so the coaches were pestering him to go out for XC. Not all HS kids have the genetics to run high mileage and stay injury-free! You'd think some of these HS coaches would have figured this out by now!

damn it, bro, all those exclamation points are making me dizzy

Mostly this sounds like a 9th grader adjusting to a big step up in training. Absolutely do not pester the coach to cut practices shorter or give the kids a day off so they can do homework. In HS sports, 2 hours a day is just not that long compared to some other sports. If he just PR'd, then your son is very unlikely to be overtrained in the technical sense.

Talk to your son, probably on a Sunday when he's had a little rest. See what he thinks. Support him.

Our Hs practices 3 hours per day and we travel trave several hours on Thursdays to large meets and return home at midnight: your situation sounds pretty normal.

1) High school XC is almost always a no cut sport. Some programs can divide into two or more groups. Other programs are Darwinian. One coach and one training group. Is it the fault of the coach if there is only one XC coach? When there is one coach, either the runners keep up or the runners do not keep up.

2) Coaches who have been high school and/or college XC and T&F athletes often coach differently than one's writing jogging books sold at B&N. Many of you will say the coach cannot coach because his/her training program is significantly different than Daniels.

3) Most runners on here not running for a school can set up an (18 to 24) month plan: sub-18 5K, sub-37:30 10K and sub-3 Marathon. Ideally, a high school coach will have two sub-16 plus three sub-17 plus two sub-17:30 5K XC runners by end of October. Attempting to create those results in a short time period will require much hard work over a short time period.

macdaddy wrote:

Run Doctor wrote:

Does her coach make them do long runs or any runs on the road? If so they clearly are not aware of the risks and have questionable qualifications.

LOL - no running on roads?! That eliminates like 95% of teams training locations. I'll be sure to spread the word to all local XCt/track coaches!!

Interesting points you made amidst the snarky comment. I'm sure that the best coaches y'all talk about here *rarely * run paved roads as the workouts.

Hey OP and others, what surface do the high schoolers you know train on?

Your kid being injured twice is once too much. Y'all do eliptigos? Tho it could be just genetics. It's not fair, but is a fact.

Honestly, I agree with the sentiment that a lot of coaches are heavily under-qualified. I live in a place with a bunch of high schools, yet not a single one can produce a fast kid. Only a couple decent athletes in the whole region, with no one able to run sub 16:20 in the 5k.

I've been watching the HS coach here that coaches the distance kids in the Fall, and somehow, believe it or not, he manages to both over-train and under-train them at the same time. He has them do things like 4 x mile repeats @ 5k race intensity, with quite a short warm up and cool down, as one of 3 workouts/races for the week. Imagine telling Bekele to do 4 x mile @ 4:03 with 3 minute rest, the same week he has 2 races. Then, they will have another grueling workout that week as hard or harder than the 4x mile @ race pace, not to mention their race on the weekend.

So they are doing these extremely intense workouts, yet their mileage would be 35 mpw only, as their warm ups, cool downs, easy days and recovery days are all short. Sometimes they will do a 1 or 2 mile tempo only, but they completely skipped harder long runs and tempo runs during preseason. It is just hard for me to understand. I imagine similar things are happening all around the country, and I wouldn't be surprised if this is the norm rather than the exception. I was trained very similarly when I ran in High School, and frankly I remember it sucking. I know it's a meme by now, but a training schedule like coach JS would have been a trillion times better, as I would have been getting a lot more tempo volume, more volume in general, and it would have been easier on my body.

However, that being said, let the coach teach your kids. Even with the weird decisions that the coach makes, I still believe the kids can be successful under the plan. Maybe they might need more sleep, a little push to do more mileage on their own, and perhaps be told to slow down a tad on their workouts if they are feeling tired, but at the end of the day I think they can be successful enough with the less-than-ideal training.

I see your analysis as unnecessarily rough. Wouldn't you agree there is a randomness regarding which kids show up for XC? Saying no sub-16:20 5K runners is a reflection on a coach? Do kids run over the summer? Coaches don't have 100% control over kids running over the summer. Would you say it's a coaching failure if a high school produces no sub-50 400m runners?

I think our coaches might push too hard on the new kids if the kids don't know how to communicate well. My kid went from his first back to back day ever to 5 days in a row in a matter of about two weeks with the coach telling the kids to run on weekends. He got shin splints , the start of some IT band issues for a few days, and he recently twisted an ankle on a trail run. Guess what ? My kid didn't run on weekends. When they went to optional doubles, my kid slept in. They invited freshmen kids out for the team on the basis that making most after school practices and most meets met the standards. That seems pretty good for a new runner who is just trying the sport , so that's what they get. However, if my kid has a problem , I tell him to stay at the school and run and if he can't go to the stationary bike. Coach has never forced him off of those kinds of choices.

The coaches can't really be expected to be perfectly in tune with what every kid needs, and that's not reflective on how good the coach only the fact that there are too many kids. The coach should keep his word regarding the expectations/ demands he recruited the kids with. The parent has to guide the kid too, and the kid has to respectfully, but firmly represent himself to the coaches. The kids that can handle the load and want to train very hard can. If the coach is coercive in the face of common sense work/risk/injury management then there is a problem.

As a coach in Australia having run in the USA High School System I would like to give my thoughts for what they are worth.

First of all their are some very good High School XC coaches, but there would also be some that wouldn't have the knowledge of working with talented athletes.

I ran well early in high school but it wasn't till I found a private coach that I was able to win two state titles and get that all but elusive scholarship and that was back in the mid 80's.

As a private coach in Australia I have completed a coaching course but obviously my running background is my real knowledge of the sport (I am lucky to have trained with world champions in the 1500m and the marathon back in my running days) as I continually read and learn on coaching methodology and how best to help my junior and senior athletes. I regularly communicate with fellow coaches on what they are doing and what is working. One particular coach sends me his athletes training schedule.

Coaching is an art but coaches need to be educated in working with young people. My training group of 30+ athletes at times includes 10 year old athletes wanting to improve their little athletics times to a female who has run 16:09/33:47 for 5k/10k.

Most high school coaches have a limited time to work with their athletes. I have worked with one of my athletes since he was 10 years old. He is now 18 and has run 3:51 for 1500m and is looking to go to Stanford or Columbia.

To the original poster parent if your child has been already injured twice since August then something is obviously wrong. High School kids in the USA do not need to train together 5-6 days per week. Have your child take a day off play another sport do something different. He needs to work on his movement efficiency.

Injuries happen I recently has a 15 year old run 16:07 for 5k on the track and he was doing too much even though he was told to back off. The reality he was running 35 miles per week!

Patience is the key to coaching and if your athletes have fun that will keep them in the game for their lifetime. Good luck!

Run Doctor wrote:

Does her coach make them do long runs or any runs on the road? If so they clearly are not aware of the risks and have questionable qualifications.

I agree with much of what you have said except for this.

Sorry, I meant to comment.

I agree with what was said, especially about the workout in between two races. Races count as workouts and you can really only do two hard workouts a week even for college kids.

Most HS cross-country runners average about 35-50 miles per week. However, state champion contenders probably exceed that. Injuries are pretty common for kids (especially girls) that haven't done distance running before or that didn't train over the summer. High school coaches/programs (in all sports) are really luck of the draw at most public schools. If you don't like the program/coach, there's not much you can do other than move to another school (except if it's outright abuse/violation of policy). Does your kid want to run varsity? Does he/she enjoy being on the team? Teenagers can be moody and the transition to high school is hard for some. XC might not be the only reason.

Things that you can help with are diet and sleep. Eating right after practice is pretty important for recovery and maintaining a good mood. You also might consider getting your kid's iron/ferritin levels checked and make sure that he/she is getting enough iron (eating red meat etc. but not at the same time as calcium products). Time management is tough, but two hour practices six days a week (or Saturday invitationals) are pretty standard. My kid's schedule during high school XC and track season was: am club activity, school, xc/track practice, dinner, homework (for AP classes), sleep. Good luck!

There is certainly no substitute for a good summer of training. In my state we are fortunate enough to be able to work with our athletes over the summer.

Every year without exception I have a difficult time keeping kids that have not trained during the summer from getting injured. Even with planned days off, no hard workouts etc. they just are not ready to race. The kids that are training over the summer on our team rarely have injuries and when they do they are nuisance type problems.

As an example this year out of the twelve that trained the most from the team we have one with an injury that has cost her four training days and so far no races.

For the remaining 34 we have had 15 with issues. None have been serious because the protocol is to back off immediately when there is an issue but it is a constant maintenance issue.

When you have that many athletes and no assistant coach it can be frustrating to spend a large amount of time helping them when the kids that really deserve your attention took the sport seriously enough to be prepared. You have learn how to manage this so it is not a problem.

Any parent/student think they are over training should look up Rudy Chapa High School training.