Thanks...I was told the the newer optical HR sensors are about as accurate as strap HR. That does not seem to be the case. I love the shape of the 35. The 230 would dig into my small wrist.
Thanks...I was told the the newer optical HR sensors are about as accurate as strap HR. That does not seem to be the case. I love the shape of the 35. The 230 would dig into my small wrist.
outsiderunner wrote:
Thanks...I was told the the newer optical HR sensors are about as accurate as strap HR. That does not seem to be the case. I love the shape of the 35. The 230 would dig into my small wrist.
For most people they aren't accurate, especially when doing intervals. For steady running they are sometimes OK. Same goes for the 235 (230 + optical HR).
Intervals on your 35:
https://www8.garmin.com/manuals/webhelp/forerunner35/EN-US/GUID-6EC17A6A-ECF6-4620-AE7D-9BCD0114ED1C.htmlHey Allen,
You mention a "40s comeback" and a "50s comeback." I find your running history interesting, and would enjoy learning more about it. Did you ever stop running completely? If so, how long were you "on the shelf"? Was it injury-induced?
You seem like a nice guy, too. It would be great to run with you sometime. :-)
Has a good eight-miler this morning. Glad to have run 26 miles this week (running four days in a row).
I will begin my assualt on high (easy) mileage soon, ramping it up gradually.
All the best...
outsiderunner wrote:
You mention a "40s comeback" and a "50s comeback." I find your running history interesting, and would enjoy learning more about it. Did you ever stop running completely? If so, how long were you "on the shelf"? Was it injury-induced?
Outsiderunner, here’s a long-winded reply to your question:
I never stopped running completely ... that is, never more than maybe four or five months with no running at all. Injuries were rarely the limiting factor, just time and other commitments.
I wasn’t an athletic kid, but the coverage of the 1972 Munich Olympics marathon sparked an interest. Through high school, cross-country and track became a real passion, although I wasn’t particularly talented (best mile at age 17 was 4:45).
My college schedule was too full to pursue athletics until spring of senior year. I ran one season, and never broke 35 for 10,000m.
After graduation, I decided to try a marathon. I went up to Montreal and ran as a bandit (Canadian postal strike delayed my application). I started very conservatively (1:45 at the half), then 1:30 for the second half. A month later, I ran another marathon in 2:52.
I trained off-and-on through the winter, and ran a spring marathon. I hit the wall badly and ran a 3:05. I became serious with training through the summer (averaging maybe 45 miles per week), raced quite a bit (low 34s for 10K) and ran a 2:47:34 marathon in September. In October I ran a 2:45:57. In November I PR'd again with a 2:40:30.
The following spring I was still close to PR condition, but decided to just run easily at Boston. My only goals were to enjoy the experience and go sub-2:50 in order to qualify again for the next year (ran 2:47).
I was improving rapidly at the time (still only age 23), and had not even fully tapped into high-mileage, consistent training. I was expecting to soon run 2:35 or better. But then career, house, wife, kids intervened … I was never able to prioritize the running hobby. I would sporadically start training for a few months, even do some racing … but long work hours, etc., would inevitably derail my plans.
Still, through my 20s and 30s, I “completed†at least one marathon almost every year, though most were 3:45 or 4:00 run-walk-run ordeals. In my late 30s I got in good enough shape to pace a female friend to a BQ in Toronto and ran Big Sur without any walking. At age 40, I ran a BQ mysellf, but didn’t maintain any consistency, and was back to the run-walk-run routine at the 2000 Boston Marathon.
In 2002, at age 42, I was finally able to seriously commit again. My sons were in high school; my job had become more manageable. I lost 30 pounds and started reading LetsRun threads. I picked up Pete Pfitzinger’s “Road Racing for Serious Runner,†and started training based on Daniels’ research. I was still relatively low-mileage, but saw rapid improvement – from 20-minute 5Ks quickly down into the 17s. But after a year, the improvement stopped. My goal was to go under 17:00, but only managed 17:10. I became frustrated, and gave up.
For years, though, I had in mind to return to Boston in 2017. Having run it in 1983 and 2000, it seemed fitting to maintain a 17-year pattern. So, last year I looked up the qualifying standard. It looked challenging, but doable.
I ran two or three days a week (never two days in a row), and concentrated mostly on increasing my long run from 12 miles to a maximum of 23. With so many rest days, my training pace was uncharacteristically fast: mostly under 8-minute miles (at or faster than goal MP).
In October I ran 3:25:27. A BQ, but two weeks too late for 2017 (should have read the fine print!). In the old days, we had the entire calendar year to qualify … Oh well, I really wasn’t looking forward to the hassles and expense. It was bad enough back in 2000. In 1983, my sister dropped me off right at the starting line, where I did a little warm-up and just ran the race. Corrals? Buses? Who needs that!
So now I am in the midst of seeing what I can do in my late 50s. I’m training 5 or 6 days a week, scheduling VO2max and Lactate Threshold workouts, and totaling 40 miles a week. I have set some time goals, but already suspect that in the race between improved fitness and the degradation of aging, old age may be winning. It will take a change of mindset to stay motivated … to focus on age-group competition and age-grade percentages rather than the clock.
Good luck with your build-up base work. Yeah, if I am ever in Virginia, a nice jaunt on your rolling hills would be fun. You'd have to slow down to my pace, though! I'm looking forward to following your continued progress.
-Allen
Oh, thanks for asking! Also, I should have mentioned that it was in spring of 2003, about in the middle of my brief "40s comeback," that I ran the 2:56 marathon.
You didn't compete as a young man? 49 this year? Beware of the impending "old age slowdown." There will eventually come a point where even "improved fitness" will no longer outpace the effects of aging. Hopefully not for quite a while!
This is great stuff, Allen. I am so glad you shared it. I wish others would do likewise, as there are so many interesting stories out there.
Yes, I never competed when younger--no high school or college running. I did a 5k when I was 19 or so, and said to myself: I have too much other stuff to do. Always, though, I sensed there was a runner in me. In the USAF (I joined late), I was able to run with many of the younger guys in basic training, and I did a 5k at the very end of basic training. I think I ended up third in my age group, and probably still have the little trophy somewhere. That was in San Antonio. Again, I did not stick with running.
In my early 40s, I knew I needed to do something to keep fit, and I wanted something some "free" (i.e. cheap) and "democratic" type of exercise--no boring, costly gyms for me. I was inspired by a friend, a walker, who lost her husband to cancer, and so I started running. I never--EVER--thought I would run a marathon, let alone qualify for and compete in the NYC Marathon. The marathon distance scared the heck out of me, and still does, to a certain degree.
And so we come to 2017, and my quest for sub-3:00. I am glad I am feeling good, and that things look promising. I feel younger and better than ever.
I wish you were here, Alan, as I would love to have you coach me. I learned a lot from the guy that had been coaching me, and I probably have enough knowledge to move forward, but you understand the "old guy runner" better than anyone I have come across. I think you are right about my capabilities, and I will be setting the bar very high for my next marathon effort. It will likely be Richmond this fall.
I think I have decided on an approach for the balance of time until Richmond. It will be simple. I would like to do a high mileage base build-up here until sometime in June, and then do an 18-week build-up for the marathon. The 2Q plan has a simple enough overall structure--basically four easy runs and two workouts for a six-day week. Actually, I would rather have you plan the workouts for me than use the JD plan for them. Again, you understand the old guy runner. I could also use my coach's workouts, which were mile-based (which I like) and simple--lots of 6x1, 2x3, 2x4, 4x2 and such, at mostly LT pace for marathon work. In the beginning, though, he had me do some track intervals (like 4x1200 @ VO2max), to build some speed.
As you and Er have suggested, I will aim more for 2:55, and see what happens. I know this: lots of miles of running in good health will certainly bring about good things. People focus so much on workouts, but I think the base and overall approach are probably more important.
All the best to you, Allen...and you are welcome to be long-winded anytime time you wish :-)
You asked if I will turn 49 this year...no, will turn 49 in the early part of next year.
outsiderunner wrote:
I would like to do a high mileage base build-up here until sometime in June, and then do an 18-week build-up for the marathon. The 2Q plan has a simple enough overall structure--basically four easy runs and two workouts for a six-day week.
I like your plan, and may purchase the Daniels book to prep for my October marathon. I'm currently following the 15K/Half Marathon schedule from the 1999 Pfitzinger book, modified slightly: I extended the 7-day weeks to 9 days to allow more recovery days (a concession to old age).
And, yes, as runners we each have a story to tell. Yours is an interesting one, and fun to follow as you chase your goals and boldly go for PRs in your late 40s. In my case, I never trained consistently for more than two years at a time, and never reached my potential. Definitely NOT someone to emulate! But I keep plugging away ... 45 years since my first "training run" around the block ...
I, too, remember my first little run around the block. That old saying is right--"The greatest journeys begin with a single step"...or a simple run around the block. What a journey it has been, and it has taken me all the way to the NYC marathon. You are still a good runner, Allen, and you are right in continuing to plug away.
As you comment upon my story, I am reminded of the movie, The Rookie, with Dennis Quaid. He plays that role so well, and I especially like when he smiles and says to his teammate, "You know what we get to do today, Brooks? We get to play baseball." He had been thinking of giving up, and he has realized how privileged he is to be able to play a kid's game so late in life. It is a moving and inspiring film, relevant to what we do as older runners. For me, to be chasing down PRs at 48 is a great gift. I am a "rookie," and I am thrilled that I can go out and be a kid again on a regular basis. Running is such a free and democratic sport. It is the best sport.
I had trouble falling alseep last night. I thought of how you were able to run a good time for a guy in his late fifties by using an extremely simple approach: running 2-3 days per week and increasing the length of your long run. As ypu said, ypu did lots of quality miles, as you were rested. I have been thinking of doing the conventional thing of running six-day weeks during the marathon cycle, but I am also thinking of incorportaing something unconventional...mixing in four-day weeks, with all medium-long runs, for rest and recovery, and to get some pop back in the legs. Coming off an injury last spring, I was able to gain a nice chunk of fitness simply by running four tens on M, W, F, and Sat. I ran these mostly at steady pace, usually finishing fast, depending upon how I felt that day. I was even thinking of adjusting this to 10-10-10-13 for 43, and then alternating that with a more conventional week of six straight days and 57 miles. Doing this, one would average 50 mpw. Prior to your 2:56 at age 43, you averaged 42 miles per week, right?
I know you thought that talented, hard-wprking 50+ female runner did too much, and I agree. I think that she also did it too close to her goal race (too close for someone 50+). Such as why I lean toward doing the higher miles further out from the race, in the base phase.
outsiderunner wrote:
... you were able to run a good time for a guy in his late fifties by using an extremely simple approach: running 2-3 days per week and increasing the length of your long run...
... I am also thinking of incorportaing something unconventional...mixing in four-day weeks, with all medium-long runs, for rest and recovery ...
... I was able to gain a nice chunk of fitness simply by running four tens on M, W, F, and Sat. I ran these mostly at steady pace, usually finishing fast, depending upon how I felt that day I was even thinking of adjusting this to 10-10-10-13 for 43, and then alternating that with a more conventional week of six straight days and 57 miles. Doing this, one would average 50 mpw.
Last fall's marathon was a soft goal ... I'm a lazy guy, and invested the least amount of effort necessary to reach it.
Now I am following a more appropriate plan with more ambitious goals. Your ideas are fine ... I like alternating weeks of higher and lower mileage ... I like easy recovery days ... I like progression runs ...
BUT, simply following the Daniels schedule, with minimal tweaking, is worth trying.
Do you follow Smoove's posts on the weekly training thread? He is obviously in a whole different league than you or I, but worth emulating if you're looking to reach maximal results.
Yes, Smoove is the real deal, and I knew this long ago. What he does at age 45 is amazing. He is very, very gifted. No, I have not been following that particular thread.
With regard to doing the Daniels plan with minimal tweaking, I note that I have basically done that for that last two marathon cycles (this is not including my work in coming off injuries, of course). What I mean is: my coach followed the conventional Daniels formula, and tweaked it slightly as per what he thought I needed personally. The .8 .9 1.0 mileage thing and peak progression were there, and there were always two quality sessions per week. The workouts were as I have indicated above. Overall, it was very "Daniels-ish."
In both cases, it became sheer drudgery after a while. I am a person that could get through almost anything if I have to, but I would rather have a more positive, invigorated outlook. I love to run, but the conventional 6-7 day marathon training thing just becomes drudgery. Also, in comparison to how I felt before the NYC Half, I realize that I was tired toward the end of those two marathon cycles. Yes, I can get through almost anything--and never was to the point of "stumbling" through a training session, as David S. Pumpkins has described above--but I think I need a change. I think I need something that is more suited to me, personally...something that I come up with, based upon my previous experiences and what has worked--and what has made me stale and uninspired to run.
I am willing to do 6-7 days per week of higher mileage build-up in my base phase. After that, we will se what happens. I continue to observe and listen...
Regarding your drudgery comment, I have found it very helpful to have others to run with, particularly on quality days. I also like to limit the buildup phase to about 9 weeks + 3 weeks taper. Any longer than that wears me out. I can't imagine doing an 18 week buildup.
outsiderunner wrote:
I think I need something that is more suited to me, personally...something that I come up with, based upon my previous experiences ...
I totally get that. For me, planning workouts and schedules is half of the fun. Maybe MOST of the fun. And it seems like you're developing a very solid plan. Recognizing the value of rest and recovery was a valuable insight ... you already knew how to push the workout days! Carry on, my friend.
Allen1959 wrote:
For me, planning workouts and schedules is half of the fun. Maybe MOST of the fun.
I am with you on this. Before each marathon, I prepare a spreadsheet that lays out exactly what I would do on each day of the 24 week training cycle if things were to go perfectly. Of course, things never go perfectly, and life gets in the way, and I have to rearrange things, drop workouts, adjust workouts on the fly, etc. But I enjoy putting the road map together and I enjoy going back and comparing what I actually did to the original plan.
Angryjohnny, I have an expression that I use with the athletes that I coach: "I have never raced more than 400m on the track." Obviously, that is not true, but it is an insight into one of the keys that all of us distance runners employ at one point or another: Take something big and break it down into smaller chunks and then focus on those smaller chunks.
Sure, I have a 24 week training cycle for the marathon, but the first 6 weeks is all base work, so it is really just 18 weeks. And of those 18 weeks, the first 6 focuses on work done at 5k pace, so that is really a separate mini-season in and of itself. That really leave 12 weeks, 2 of which are the taper. That really means that I have 10 weeks of heavy work to focus on. I then break those ten weeks up by focusing on the periods between peak mileage weeks. Since I have 3 peak mileage weeks written into my schedule, this gives me nice 3-4 week blocks to focus on at any given time. Those blocks just get piled on top of one another just like the 400s in a 5000m race on the track or the individual miles on a long run.
Anyone can run 400m!
Good input here, folks. Got to run now. Will post later.
I suppose I could tolerate a longer buildup during fall and winter for a spring marathon, but lately I've been running two fulls per year (fall + spring) which makes it tough when you factor in roughly a month for recovery. Training hard all the way through the summer for a fall marathon ain't happening where I live.
If I had my wish I would move Chicago to next March, start training in September/October, break 2:40, and then drop the microphone.
I know what you mean, angryjohnny. I feel better in knowing that I am not the only one who thinks the conventional marathon build-up is drudgery. A long, hot summer (such as last year's) is tough to get through...though at least the warmer weather seems to help me in regard to injury.
I think the mental fatigue, though, might be the worst part. The dread I have in knowing a workout is approaching on a hot day is very draining...lots of apprehension and tension. Likewise, the mental fatigue of repetition, simply from running 6-7 days per week, gets to me, too.
In any case, I am enjoying the "free" running I am doing now...building my base.
Two fulls per year is too much for me to handle, but if I were to run two fulls per year, I would probably work off of a 12-16 week plan, not a 18-24 week plan.
Definitely NYC
I have registered for Richmond.
How is it going for you with your HM training, Allen?