Richmond Marathon or NYC Marathon?

outsiderunner wrote:

On what type of course did you run the 2:56:03?

I wish you well in your upcoming half. How are you feeling?

Loop course, so neither net elevation gain nor loss. Flat, with just enough "rolling" terrain to keep the legs fresh. Small marathon, so no pace groups ... I ran solo for much of the race, but was able to chase down a few folks along the way.

Best thing was that it was just a half hour from home. I was able to run 14 miles of the course at few weeks before the race.

You may have noticed that, apart from the three other races, I only ran a few miles at marathon pace or faster during those entire six weeks. I think that's why, after seeing how many runs you were able to hammer at close to marathon pace last fall, I was one of those claiming you were easily 2:55, or even close to 2:50 shape. That was based on my experience with "race day magic" -- and my inability to hammer marathon pace in training!

I'm hopeful about the upcoming Half. A few weeks ago, I ran 6:45 pace for a hilly 10-mile race. I hope to run that same pace for 13.1, but my more realistic, stated goal is 6:50/mi. I've been running only about 40 mpw, but included regular workouts and long runs. I post weekly on the 50-plus training thread.

Best to you, outsiderunner. It's been fascinating following your saga!

Allen1959 wrote:

Best thing was that it was just a half hour from home. I was able to run 14 miles of the course at few weeks before the race.

I concur. Its probably mostly mental, but I've found that being familiar with the course is a significant advantage that should not be overlooked.

Thanks for the info and kind words, Allen. Yes, it has been a fascinating journey, and I look forward to some good racing ahead.

I am glad you told me about the course. I did not mean to pry, but the course is always a significant factor. I would like to run one like the one you have described...mostly flat, with a few little hills to mix things up, get different muscles working. I could run a downhill course, but have never been interested in doing so. No offense to those who run them for a PR, but it just would not mean the same thing to me.

Judging by my training runs, I, too, was puzzled by my NYC performance, but your story about the female 50+ runner really helped to explain things for me. Indeed, she should have run faster in those races, but she did too much and was not rested.

Let me know how the half goes, and all the best in it. I rested again today, as my calves are still very sore. NYC races seem to put a hurt on a guy. We will see what tomorrow brings. Perhaps I will do a few miles. I miss running already.

Was able to do six miles today. Glad to be back on the roads. A very windy run this morning.

Still thinking about training options and a fall goal race. It will likely be Richmond. It seems the best overall choice.

Things are getting exciting.

Interesting last week before the marathon. I would rather put a bullet in my head than race a 5k a week out. But we all train differently.

After my recent experience, I am inclined to agree with you, Who Dat. Yes, we all train differently. Likewise, most plans call for five or even six days of running in the week prior to a big race. To me, that is like two bullets in the head. Fresh is what one must be for a race--at least an old guy like me.

I have been looking through the Daniels 2Q plan and other Daniels stuff, and I think I can say the same thing about those workouts: I would rather put a bullet trhough my head than do that quantum mechanics for 18 weeks. Could they be any more complictaed? Three miles of this and two minutes of that and 1k of this and on and on. It seems you would need both a track and roads for most of the workouts, and then what if you live in a hilly area? How would you keep an I or T pace on hills? Planning for this seems a nightmare.

I know JD is a fine coach who has had lots of success, but his plans do not seem to fit "the guy with a job and a life" who wants success, but wants some sanity and simplicity, too.

I think you're just baiting me now!

Seriously though, I think you are overstating the complexity of the plan. I admit that I go off of marathon training plan A from the second edition of his book, which is different than what you are probably looking at with the 2Q plan, but I think they are derived based on the same principles.

Ialso honestly wonder if you read the book or just look at the training plan. Based on the statements that you make about needing a track and not being able to account for hills, I have to wonder.

But as you say, to each his own.

I hear you. I would love to try the Daniels 2Q program but I just don't have it in me to do the mid-week workouts of 16-18 miles. Sure I could wake up at 3:30 in the morning so I could be done by 6 or so to feed my kids breakfast or run from 9-11 at night after the kids go to bed but no thanks. I suppose I could scale back but wouldn't get full benefits of the program. We all do what we can. McMillan fits my schedule and I may try Hudson for the first time for fall marathon.

IRTQ - I wouldn't worry so much about pace on hills. Focus more on effort and remind yourself you're building strength.

No, I am not baiting you, Smoove--you know I love you :-)

I have read some of the book (newest version), and I was honestly confused by the apparent road stuff (miles at E pace) combined with things such as 1k reps or 400s. These are long runs, too, so, in my simpleton-runner mind, it seemed to combine track and road elements.

I hear you back, Who Dat. I started running because I wanted something simple, cheap (i.e. no ball and chain monthly gym fees), and effective for exercise and enrichment. It has been a very "freeing" experience for the last 4-5 years. Some of my coach's workouts were somewhat complicated, but the JD workouts are even more complicated.

I get the hill/effort thing, but the hallmark of the JD stuff is how precise and exacting it is, and this would seem to go against the JD approach (at least somewhat).

All the best to you, Who Dat...

Who Dat? wrote:

Interesting last week before the marathon. I would rather put a bullet in my head than race a 5k a week out. But we all train differently.

Who dat, what's not to like about a quick 3 miler a week before the marathon?! :) You may have noticed I did a little 5K mini-taper for it, too! I actually don't recall my motivation ... but looking back, I'm amazed I could run 5:38/mi pace when I had run maybe 5 miles total at 6:45 pace or faster in the previous weeks (except for the HM and the other 5K).

I may have been channeling my 23-year-old self. Twenty years previously, I had set my lifetime 5K PR exactly a week before running my lifetime marathon PR (@5:10/mi and 6:07/mi, respectively).

Yes, Allen, that is amazing, and I see why you thought, with all of my marathon pace miles, that I should have been much faster in my fall marathon.

Your post of your final six weeks blows my mind in general. So much 8:00+ stuff. On paper, you look like a real slowpoke, but certainly you were not with your pot of 2:56 gold at then end of your training rainbow.

All the best...

I agree that his workouts look complex at first sight, but honestly, it's not that bad.

And you only have to do two Q workouts a week, so the other days you can just run.

For a workout like 4 E + 1 T + 8 M + 2 E, it would just write "4 E + 1 T + 8 M + 2 E" and maybe the paces (don't worry about E pace) on your hand or on a paper.

For a workout like 8 E + 4 x (1 T w/ 1 min rests) + 1 E, just program the T part into your Garmin Forerunner. Your watch will beep and vibrate when you have to run and rest, it's very easy.

Oh and for his marathon plan you don't need a track at all.

For the couple I and R workouts, I would try to find a flat road.

And just adjust the T and M paces a bit if you are doing them in a hilly area.

Save $$$$ and stress from sitting in a cold lawn for 3 hours, and run Richmond. You can walk out of your hotel to the start/finish within 1/2 mile.

Thanks, gregxc. I guess things just take some getting accustomed to. I gather it is pretty easy to program my Garmin for the workout? I have used the Garmin for mile splits and for easy tracking of distance--I am not much of a watch watcher.

I currently have the Garmin 35 (returned the problematic 230). I like the rectangular screen on the 35--more comfotable than the 230's round shape. Mu old 10 is virtually identical in its splits in comparison to the 35--same 99% accuracy. The HR feature on the 35 is nice, too, though, I seem to get some wild readings sometimes, and so I wonder about its accuracy with regard to HR.

All the best...

This makes A LOT of sense, and this is the way I am leaning. I doubt it will be anyhting other than Richmond. I will decide soon, definitely before March 31st. I like that with Richmond, I can also skip the expo, and have my bib mailed to me. It is not the flattest course, but Richmond has so many good points. The crowd support was very good, too...friendly folks cheering on the runners, even calling out your name.

This is a perfect example - there really isn't anything hard to figure out here. I view this as:8 mile "warm up"4 cruise interval miles2 mile cool downAfter reading through the book, you come to know that cruise intervals are done at tempo pace and you know that tempo pace is (1) comfortably hard, (2) the pace at which you can speak a sentence or two, but not a paragraph, (3) 20-25 seconds slower than 5k race pace, (4) the pace you can barely maintain before switching over to a racing breathing pattern. Pick any one of those tests - the only one that involves locking into a specified pace is (3). If you have a Garmin, that one is easy as well. If you are on a hilly course, focus on maintaining a steady effort rather than a steady pace.Figuring out rest is easy. It is 1:00 for roughly every 5:00 of work at tempo pace.So essentially, when you walk out of your door, you know that you are going to run 8 miles easy, then do 5 cruise interval miles with :60 -: 75 rest and then cool down. For a guy as bright and meticulous as you, I hardly think this is quantum physics.

outsiderunner wrote:

Thanks, gregxc. I guess things just take some getting accustomed to. I gather it is pretty easy to program my Garmin for the workout? I have used the Garmin for mile splits and for easy tracking of distance--I am not much of a watch watcher.

I currently have the Garmin 35 (returned the problematic 230). I like the rectangular screen on the 35--more comfotable than the 230's round shape. Mu old 10 is virtually identical in its splits in comparison to the 35--same 99% accuracy. The HR feature on the 35 is nice, too, though, I seem to get some wild readings sometimes, and so I wonder about its accuracy with regard to HR.

All the best...

Allen1959 wrote:

Who Dat? wrote:

Interesting last week before the marathon. I would rather put a bullet in my head than race a 5k a week out. But we all train differently.

Who dat, what's not to like about a quick 3 miler a week before the marathon?! :) You may have noticed I did a little 5K mini-taper for it, too! I actually don't recall my motivation ... but looking back, I'm amazed I could run 5:38/mi pace when I had run maybe 5 miles total at 6:45 pace or faster in the previous weeks (except for the HM and the other 5K).

I may have been channeling my 23-year-old self. Twenty years previously, I had set my lifetime 5K PR exactly a week before running my lifetime marathon PR (@5:10/mi and 6:07/mi, respectively).

I'm not criticizing Allen, I just wouldn't have done that but that's okay. We're all different. At the end of the day we're not making any money off this so we should enjoy it as much as possible. Impressive on the 2 PRs in one week.