Actually, upon re-reading, I agree - he said it would stress all three systems (?), including max speed.
Could you elaborate on how? I'd be interested in reading about this.
Actually, upon re-reading, I agree - he said it would stress all three systems (?), including max speed.
Could you elaborate on how? I'd be interested in reading about this.
I am neither a professional coach nor runner, but I advocate interval and time trial workouts only for middle distance races; that is, zero mileage. Over the last decade a number of studies have shown this approach produces metabolic benefits at least equal to mileage. This would translate into not track workouts every day, but maybe 1-3 days a week with rest days between. I believe the best results would occur training no more than twice per week.
Its not like weights (800). You need some endurance too.
I would look into Alysia Montano's coach Tony Sandoval. Alysia never races more then a 800 and is arguably the most consistent and dominant 800 runner in US history or world if you minus dopers and intersex athletes. I have read she does a long run once a week based on time not miles which fluctuates from 60-90min depending on where in the season she is.
If you do too much hard interval training you will get sick, injured or stale/burned out. That is what is happening to you.
What you want to do when you interval train is to raise the pH level in your blood. However if you do too much your body might not have a chance to lower the pH to normal levels and that is where you run into trouble.
This is the way Lydiard would often have his athletes do Interval Training:
They would go to an oval that was often unmeasured. The runner would run a lap hard, jog a lap, run a lap hard, jog a lap, etc., until "pleasantly tired." So they didn't time the laps or count them. The athlete decides when it's time to quit. "The mistake Americans make is to want their runners to do 10 X 400 in 55 or whatever and there is no flexibility."
Yes it's true and you still see this a lot at every level of competition.
A runner must be an athlete and that is why you want to do speed development. Ryan Hall, 2:04 marathoner did at least one speed development day per week starting in his high school days when he had his Dad as his coach up to his days as a 2 X Olympian. Hall also was a miler and 5K runner in his college days. Why would an 800 man avoid speed development?
What is speed development? It could be short hills of less than 100 meters, short sprints (less than 100 meters), skipping rope, dynamic running drills, downhill running, bounding up hills, plyometrics, and perhaps even weight training. Concentrate on the lower body, you do not need a huge bench press to be an efficient runner unless you are running less than 400 meters.
It is the long run that puts the tiger in the cat, and I suggest increasing this to as much as 20 miles or more.
You should have recovery runs of 4-6 miles the day after a speed development workout or the long run. Arthur Lydiard would recommend far more than this, but you must build up to stuff like this. Anything new should be approached with caution. If you have been injured I would avoid the new minimalist shoes.
Arthur Lydiard coached all over the world including China, Japan, Finland, Ethiopia, Mexico, USA, Australia, and his native New Zealand. (That was a short list of the places he coached.) Virtually all coaching programs are influenced by him.
Believe me I wish I had known these things when I competed in high school and college!!!
Anon wrote:
Its not like weights (800). You need some endurance too.
The best form of conditioning for any event is to replicate as closely possible the exact demands of the event itself. 800m time trials and goal pace workouts provide conditioning metabolically specific to the 800m, including aerobic conditioning to the degree required for the event. No additional mileage or "endurance" work is necessary or desiresble.
The 800 is the most aerobically demanding event there is, except maybe the 400h. The "percent" aerobic compared to anaerobic may be lower than long distance, but you still use oxygen waaaaaaaaaay faster. It's not possible to use oxygen as fast if you don't have low muscle pH, which 800 pushes to the limit.
The most specific way you can train for this is at that low muscle pH. Unfortunately this is extremely stressful and risks injury if you do too much, particularly on a track.
There is no "aerobic" benefit to LSD unless you are so untrained that it is an aerobic stress. The real benefit is biomechanical, as it conditions you to oppose gravity efficiently for a long time. A fast 800 is under 2 minutes, so that's irrelevant.
Then what else do you do between serious workouts that can't be too frequent? Who cares. Might as well be slow runs, if anything. Join the NOP and use an alter-G? it doesn't really matter as long as your form is perfect and you make sure to recover fully.
Ps and Qs n stuff wrote:
However the long run puts the tiger in the cat because if it is long enough it will stress all three systems pretty well even the first system of speed development. This is supported by research.
This needs some elaboration. Do you mean the three muscle fiber types when you say all 3 systems?
I can recall studies where they found very long runs eventually started engaging fast twitch type 2a and even fast twitch type 2x, but this is a VERY different concept from 'speed development', both in terms of energy systems and force development. The number that sticks out in my memory was also having to do more than 2:00:00 of running to get to this point,..
ultralowrunner wrote:
Running is taxing, even when performed at the lightest of paces. One could make a substantial physiological argument for training with much lower overall mileage (eg. < 30) for target distances of 800-mile. I am wondering if anyone here is aware of any such advocates. It seems even Seb Coe, whose workouts emphasized quality, had his high mileage periods. Personally, my most rapid improvements have come during periods of very low mileage, with sufficient rest between successive workouts - I only ran when fully refreshed. I anticipate some dismissive or insulting remarks as replies, but please answer respectfully, as this is a genuine question.
Runner since the '80, from youth to age groups now. PR's under 16 (5k), under 33 (10k) and under 82 (HM). Small fish in the big scheme of things but proud of my longevity. Just under ran a low 35' 10k at 47. LOW MILEAGE (40/50 w) & HIGH INTENSITY ALL THE WAY....
Depends if you see yourselves running when you turn 40.... EXCESS MILEAGE while you are young WILL CRIPPLE YOU when you turn the corner... let me say it again....
C-R-I-P-P-L-E Y-O-U
Food x thought....
You, sir, know your Lydiard well.
Ps and Qs n stuff wrote:
If you do too much hard interval training you will get sick, injured or stale/burned out. That is what is happening to you.
What you want to do when you interval train is to raise the pH level in your blood. However if you do too much your body might not have a chance to lower the pH to normal levels and that is where you run into trouble.
This is the way Lydiard would often have his athletes do Interval Training:
They would go to an oval that was often unmeasured. The runner would run a lap hard, jog a lap, run a lap hard, jog a lap, etc., until "pleasantly tired." So they didn't time the laps or count them. The athlete decides when it's time to quit. "The mistake Americans make is to want their runners to do 10 X 400 in 55 or whatever and there is no flexibility."
Yes it's true and you still see this a lot at every level of competition.
A runner must be an athlete and that is why you want to do speed development. Ryan Hall, 2:04 marathoner did at least one speed development day per week starting in his high school days when he had his Dad as his coach up to his days as a 2 X Olympian. Hall also was a miler and 5K runner in his college days. Why would an 800 man avoid speed development?
What is speed development? It could be short hills of less than 100 meters, short sprints (less than 100 meters), skipping rope, dynamic running drills, downhill running, bounding up hills, plyometrics, and perhaps even weight training. Concentrate on the lower body, you do not need a huge bench press to be an efficient runner unless you are running less than 400 meters.
It is the long run that puts the tiger in the cat, and I suggest increasing this to as much as 20 miles or more.
You should have recovery runs of 4-6 miles the day after a speed development workout or the long run. Arthur Lydiard would recommend far more than this, but you must build up to stuff like this. Anything new should be approached with caution. If you have been injured I would avoid the new minimalist shoes.
Arthur Lydiard coached all over the world including China, Japan, Finland, Ethiopia, Mexico, USA, Australia, and his native New Zealand. (That was a short list of the places he coached.) Virtually all coaching programs are influenced by him.
Believe me I wish I had known these things when I competed in high school and college!!!
Turbogeezer wrote:
You, sir, know your Lydiard well.
[quote]Ps and Qs n stuff wrote:
What you want to do when you interval train is to raise the pH level in your blood. However if you do too much your body might not have a chance to lower the pH to normal levels and that is where you run into trouble.
I hope Lydiard actually said this, because it will make it so easy to ruin him.
I don't see how a 20 mile long run is going to significantly improve my 800m running. I was a 1:50 runner off of short sharp training, how much better would a 20 mile long run make me? Or slower intervals than I was doing (400s in 54, 300s in 39/40, 200s in 25/26) make me faster.
My guess is itt would make me slower if I trained that way.
Its really a sprint wrote:
I would look into Alysia Montano's coach Tony Sandoval. Alysia never races more then a 800 and is arguably the most consistent and dominant 800 runner in US history or world if you minus dopers and intersex athletes. I have read she does a long run once a week based on time not miles which fluctuates from 60-90min depending on where in the season she is.
Yes, I weekly 10-miler is plenty for an 800 runner. Should be much less in-season.
20 miles to "put the tiger in the cat" is fine for distance runners who want to race the 800 occasionally (Centro), but you will never see an elite speed-based runner doing 20 miles, nor should you.
I like how the OP asked about physiology-based advocates, and all of the posts are fables about bounding around unmeasured tracks, skipping rope and "putting the tiger in the cat."
800m training should consist of shorter stuff in general.
Sample week.
Monday - 800, 600, 600, 200 x3 w/ 200m jog recovery
Tuesday - Speed work - 200m reps or shorter
Wednesday - rest
Thursday - 300m session maybe (3x 300m w/ 100m recovery) x 3
Friday - Rest
Saturday - 5k tempo
Sunday - rest
could whack a longer run in, depends on how the athlete responds. Core work/weights should also be include obviously
I have no idea what kind of shape Heath is in, don't really follow US athletes. He has three wins on the trot though, so I'm not writing him off. He's clearly made for real XC.
swear I just posted this on a different thread. Sorry
Ps and Qs n stuff wrote:
If you do too much hard interval training you will get sick, injured or stale/burned out. That is what is happening to you.
What you want to do when you interval train is to raise the pH level in your blood. However if you do too much your body might not have a chance to lower the pH to normal levels and that is where you run into trouble.
This is the way Lydiard would often have his athletes do Interval Training:
They would go to an oval that was often unmeasured. The runner would run a lap hard, jog a lap, run a lap hard, jog a lap, etc., until "pleasantly tired." So they didn't time the laps or count them. The athlete decides when it's time to quit. "The mistake Americans make is to want their runners to do 10 X 400 in 55 or whatever and there is no flexibility."
Yes it's true and you still see this a lot at every level of competition.
A runner must be an athlete and that is why you want to do speed development. Ryan Hall, 2:04 marathoner did at least one speed development day per week starting in his high school days when he had his Dad as his coach up to his days as a 2 X Olympian. Hall also was a miler and 5K runner in his college days. Why would an 800 man avoid speed development?
What is speed development? It could be short hills of less than 100 meters, short sprints (less than 100 meters), skipping rope, dynamic running drills, downhill running, bounding up hills, plyometrics, and perhaps even weight training. Concentrate on the lower body, you do not need a huge bench press to be an efficient runner unless you are running less than 400 meters.
It is the long run that puts the tiger in the cat, and I suggest increasing this to as much as 20 miles or more.
You should have recovery runs of 4-6 miles the day after a speed development workout or the long run. Arthur Lydiard would recommend far more than this, but you must build up to stuff like this. Anything new should be approached with caution. If you have been injured I would avoid the new minimalist shoes.
Arthur Lydiard coached all over the world including China, Japan, Finland, Ethiopia, Mexico, USA, Australia, and his native New Zealand. (That was a short list of the places he coached.) Virtually all coaching programs are influenced by him.
Believe me I wish I had known these things when I competed in high school and college!!!
I like the general philosophy of Lydiard and had some success when applying it to myself - especially the throwing away the watch philosophy on your intervals. i was crushed mentally after training with 3 hard interval sessions each week for many years before this.
However, someone like Bannister trained only using intervals day in day out - if you are to believe the training accounts. How did he succeed? I don't believe that it was by chance. My guess is is that for a lot of the year he was not running his intervals all out, he may have been quite relaxed until just approcaching his key races.
"unlike in the 1970s when many doing LSD 120 mpw were getting injured"
This is bullshite.
None of the guys I trained with were joggers. They got dropped in the first mile if they couldn't stay up.
I feel as if I read somewhere that Duane Solomon runs about 30mpw w/only one "long run" a week. He's gone 45.9 1:43 and I wanna say 3:45 for 1500, all very respectable. I am partial to a low mileage system as that is how I train all my runners.