For clarification, by "current" I mean actively competing.
For clarification, by "current" I mean actively competing.
aserdfssdfd wrote:
Relativity wrote:The poster also speculated that Dutee Chand has AIS in order to create the basis on which their theorem is based.
They have simply decided that the feminine looking intersex athletes have AIS and are fair game, and the ugly ones have this 5-ARD.
There are many types of intersex condition, it is very difficult to correctly diagnose someone even with full access to their physical body.
Niyonsaba for example, is being thrown into this and there is no good evidence she is intersex at all, and has now been diagnosed by a Letsrun specialist as having specifically 5-ARD. Laughable.
There is a good reason that guy's post was deleted from the other website; speculation like this is actually useless conjecture.
Fair points about Niyonsaba and Chand, although I would still say that the timing of Niyonsaba's amazing improvement in performance, which coincided with the CAS ruling is highly suspicious.
I don't know enough about Chand's situation to comment.
Timing is something, but Muir also had an absolutely incredible rise to fame this year. Clayton Murphy had an incredible rise to fame, as did Donovan Brazier. Bishop herself did much better than expected.
Niyonsaba has the unfortunate (for her) caveat of being a woman in the 800m that is from Africa.
This isn't me defending her or saying she definitely isn't intersex, I just think it's sad to be accusing people of cheating etc with no good evidence.
Relativity wrote:
aserdfssdfd wrote:I don't think that he was giving an official medical diagnosis, more like sharing his opinion on an anonymous forum.
There is more evidence than photographs, however. What about the fact that they were on the same testosterone-suppressing drugs as Semenya and, like Semenya, when they stopped taking them, their times improved by leaks and bounds. If they had high testosterone but AIS their times shouldn't have been impacted by any great extent.
Their marked improvement is really the smoking gun. I don't need a doctor to tell me that.
The poster also speculated that Dutee Chand has AIS in order to create the basis on which their theorem is based.
They have simply decided that the feminine looking intersex athletes have AIS and are fair game, and the ugly ones have this 5-ARD.
There are many types of intersex condition, it is very difficult to correctly diagnose someone even with full access to their physical body.
Niyonsaba for example, is being thrown into this and there is no good evidence she is intersex at all, and has now been diagnosed by a Letsrun specialist as having specifically 5-ARD. Laughable.
There is a good reason that guy's post was deleted from the other website; speculation like this is actually useless conjecture.
Niyonsaba's intersex status was confirmed by the Fancy Bears leak. She had a TUE for a testosterone inhibitor.
Why would she be taking something like this if there wasn't an issue?
800 meter specialist wrote:
Relativity wrote:The fact remains there are women who can meet those standards I put forward. There is less talent in the women's sport due to numbers, but those stand out talents have just not been found in the 800m.
There was a few women running 3:55 and closing 1500s with 2:00 last 800s. 3:55 is equivalent to 1:55 all day long. Or maybe Muir is intersex too now?
And for the 400m Felix could surely break 49, Miller ran 49.4 after rounds. Lots of clean women (in my opinion) have broken 49 fair and square.
Why should the women in the 800m recently become so afraid of 1:56? Like it is some freakish time? WR should be 1:53. Top elites should run 1:54/1:55.
Semenya should run 1:51.
No, there aren't "women" plural who can meet those standards in this day and age. There is currently one woman in the world (Felix) who has split under 48. There is currently one woman in the world (Dibaba) who has run 3:50.
You really think lots of clean women have broken an open 49? There are 37 performances under 49.00 ever. 29 of these performances were by athletes in Soviet satellites in the 1980s. The remaining 8 performances are by 5 women.
3:55 may be equivalent to 1:55, but there aren't lots of women running 3:55 either. There are 23 performances under 3:56.00. 17 of these performances were by athletes from 1980s Soviet satellite countries or 1990s China. The other 6 performances are by Dibaba (2), Muir, Süreyya Ayhan-Kop (Turkey, 2), and Hassiba Boulmerka (Algeria).
You are getting bogged down with semantics. By 'women' I meant across the events. i.e there is at least a woman in the 400/1500( and the 100/200/5k/10k) that can reach these standards to be considered among the best all time excluding Soviet states in the 80s. 10.7, 21.6, 47 relay, 3:50, 14:12, 29:17 are times that have been hit by women in the very recent sport. But there is no equivalent woman in the 800m.
Don't tell me a bunch of girls running 1:57 is anything special. Girls who struggle to break 54 in the 400m or 4:10 in the 1500m.
trollism wrote:
Relativity wrote:The poster also speculated that Dutee Chand has AIS in order to create the basis on which their theorem is based.
They have simply decided that the feminine looking intersex athletes have AIS and are fair game, and the ugly ones have this 5-ARD.
There are many types of intersex condition, it is very difficult to correctly diagnose someone even with full access to their physical body.
Niyonsaba for example, is being thrown into this and there is no good evidence she is intersex at all, and has now been diagnosed by a Letsrun specialist as having specifically 5-ARD. Laughable.
There is a good reason that guy's post was deleted from the other website; speculation like this is actually useless conjecture.
Niyonsaba's intersex status was confirmed by the Fancy Bears leak. She had a TUE for a testosterone inhibitor.
Why would she be taking something like this if there wasn't an issue?
Documents reveal that she holds a valid TUE for tibolone, a synthetic hormone designed to combat oestrogen deficiency in post menopausal women.
Relativity wrote:
You are getting bogged down with semantics. By 'women' I meant across the events. i.e there is at least a woman in the 400/1500( and the 100/200/5k/10k) that can reach these standards to be considered among the best all time excluding Soviet states in the 80s. 10.7, 21.6, 47 relay, 3:50, 14:12, 29:17 are times that have been hit by women in the very recent sport. But there is no equivalent woman in the 800m.
Don't tell me a bunch of girls running 1:57 is anything special. Girls who struggle to break 54 in the 400m or 4:10 in the 1500m.
You can mention 47 relay all you like, but there aren't any recent women in the sport that have hit the sub 48.5 open times of Koch, KratochvÃlová, Bryzgina, and Kocembová (Pérec in '96 trained with Koch's coach before randomly pulling out of the Sydney Olympics...).
Jelimo's the only modern era woman who's been close to the Soviets in the 800. She actually got closer to KratochvÃlová's 800 than modern era athletes have gotten to Koch's 400.
Don't you think there's a significant possibility that testosterone-boosting drugs--drugs that caused a number of ex-Soviet and East German athletes to pursue gender reassignment surgeries later in life--have a greater impact on mid distance than sprints or distance? Which might be why intersex athletes clearly dominate in the 8 but not in the short sprints or long distance events? This would also reasonably explain why the long sprint/shorter mid distance women's records haven't really been touchable in the modern era.
The poster also speculated that Dutee Chand has AIS in order to create the basis on which their theorem is based.
They have simply decided that the feminine looking intersex athletes have AIS and are fair game, and the ugly ones have this 5-ARD.
There are many types of intersex condition, it is very difficult to correctly diagnose someone even with full access to their physical body.
Niyonsaba for example, is being thrown into this and there is no good evidence she is intersex at all, and has now been diagnosed by a Letsrun specialist as having specifically 5-ARD. Laughable.
There is a good reason that guy's post was deleted from the other website; speculation like this is actually useless conjecture.[/quote]
The article posted on LR in 2014 and written by Joanna Harper, the trangender medical physicist, speculates that Dutee Chand has AIS. If you read that article, and follow the link within it to an article about Dutee, you will notice that the activist Dr Payoshina Mitra was instrumental in convincing Dutee to not undergo hormone therapy and appeal to CAS. The crux of their argument before CAS was that hormone therapy could be detrimental to the long term health of the athlete. (Just speculating here, but IF Dutee is complete AIS, the hormone therapy may not have had much affect on her athletic performance or health, if her body is incentive to testosterone anyway).
It is reasonable to guess that Dutee was used as a "test case" because the AIS situation is easier to convince CAS that hormone therapy should not be forced on athletes (especially since the high T level in AIS has no effect on the athlete anyway). But like all good "test cases," it was used by the activist Dr Mitra to open the door to other intersex athletes (the article called her an activist, those are not my words).
The argument that Dr Mitra made that requiring hormone therapy could be detrimental to the long term health of the athlete is a compelling argument. This is why the line has to be drawn with the presence of the Y chromosome. It will suck for people like Dutee or other complete AIS females, but it is the lesser of 2 evils. The current situation is unfair to dozens of other women who loose out national spots on teams and podium finishes to intersex athletes.
800 meter specialist wrote:
Relativity wrote:You are getting bogged down with semantics. By 'women' I meant across the events. i.e there is at least a woman in the 400/1500( and the 100/200/5k/10k) that can reach these standards to be considered among the best all time excluding Soviet states in the 80s. 10.7, 21.6, 47 relay, 3:50, 14:12, 29:17 are times that have been hit by women in the very recent sport. But there is no equivalent woman in the 800m.
Don't tell me a bunch of girls running 1:57 is anything special. Girls who struggle to break 54 in the 400m or 4:10 in the 1500m.
You can mention 47 relay all you like, but there aren't any recent women in the sport that have hit the sub 48.5 open times of Koch, KratochvÃlová, Bryzgina, and Kocembová (Pérec in '96 trained with Koch's coach before randomly pulling out of the Sydney Olympics...).
Jelimo's the only modern era woman who's been close to the Soviets in the 800. She actually got closer to KratochvÃlová's 800 than modern era athletes have gotten to Koch's 400.
Don't you think there's a significant possibility that testosterone-boosting drugs--drugs that caused a number of ex-Soviet and East German athletes to pursue gender reassignment surgeries later in life--have a greater impact on mid distance than sprints or distance? Which might be why intersex athletes clearly dominate in the 8 but not in the short sprints or long distance events? This would also reasonably explain why the long sprint/shorter mid distance women's records haven't really been touchable in the modern era.
Ok forget the times run by Soviet athletes. Completely forget it. Drugs etc make all that a useless discussion. We don't know what was real.
As I showed in a previous post, comparing to men, women in the 800m are relatively far weaker than women in other events.
I don't know why, but I will speculate that this is due to there being no good talents in the 800m right now. Which makes Niyonsaba and Wambui seem even better.
Semenya is something else, she has real 400m speed.
Actually think about it. 1:55 is equivalent to 3:55 and there are fully accepted women running 3:55/3:56 right now. These same women can close out 1500m races in 800 times that would get someone into the 2016 Olympic 800m final. Even 49 mid has got to be worth 1:55. (I'm using boys performances get these equivalences btw)
Top 800m men can run 45/46. But not a single 800m girl can run 51. Some top 800m men can run elite 1500m times; around 3:30. The top 800m girls don't even touch the 1500m and the likes of Melissa/Sharp struggle to come within 15 seconds of Muir etc. This does not happen in the men's event.
If Dibaba decided to run an 800m tomorrow she would run 1:55, but the 800m is not fashionable in Ethiopia and she already doubles the 1500/5k.
Bill Burr wrote:
There are two main reasons why people have become so politically correct in Canada. That includes the all white male distance runner fraternity (AWMDRF) on this forum.
Reason [1]: The need to raise their status and reputation in their community.
We all know that there is a long history of racism in Canada (and the United States). Most of which was committed by white males. Therefore the white males of today, being aware of this shameful past, have (very rightly) decided to move away from the type of thinking and actions of their ancestors.
But, unfortunately what has happened, is that they have overshot. They have gone to the other extreme. That being a society of politically correct individuals that don't want to point out anything out of fear of a decline in status and reputation. They are so afraid of being labelled as a racist or a bigot or a xenophobe, that they either stay silent about issues or they go bases loaded home run PC.
I can say with confidence that most of you are not racists, or bigots or xenophobes. So why be afraid that someone may call you that? If you know in your heart that you are not, then you should have no apprehension to fully speak your mind on controversial topics.
Reason [2]: Fear of the new laws and repercussions.
Thanks to Justin Trudeau and several others before him, Canada has become a place similar to Western Europe. Where freedom of speech and expression has actually become against the law. Yes this is true.
Growing up in Canada, I was always taught that free speech is in the bill of rights. But now these PC politicians are tearing apart the fabric of the nation by introducing legislation that can imprison someone who simply voices an opinion.
For example Justin Trudope supports the hijab. That head scarf is a symbol of the 7th century islamic oppression of women. It has no place in a civilized society like Canada, in the 21st century. But (sigh) if you say this, you get in trouble. I highly doubt this man would ever force his wife or his daughter to put that on their heads. But he is ok for other men to do so.
He forces Canadians to simply bow their heads to people who come into the country and disrespect established laws, rules and freedoms and impose their backward 7th century customs on this advanced, educated and excellent society.
Now you have a case of a group of individuals, namely Y chromosome hermaphrodites, who have busted into the sport of track and field. They have clearly violated the rules of fair play, and have had the IAAF overturn established rules related to hyperandrogenism.
. . . and the reaction by the PC community? The same. Bow your head and let the integrity of the sport be torn to pieces. Keep up the same PC behaviour in Canada and you will have sharia law in Ontario within a few years.
Here are some Non-PC YouTube Channels I recommend (you may learn something):
Pat Condell (immigration and politics):
https://www.youtube.com/user/patcondell/videosTommy Sotomayor (race relations):
https://www.youtube.com/user/tnnraw2/videosAyaan Hirsi Ali (religion):
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqURZNQQksQdnQrpQhMZalg/videos#NeverPC #NeverScared #NeverAWMDRF
Buddy, if you don't like it you can move elsewhere, or run for office.
There will be no sharia law in Ontario. If Hudak had not opened his mouth and threatened to lay 10,000 people off, Wynne would not be in power.
Oh, you don't live here. Who gives a shite, then.
I got it:how about we give all the competitors a nice big trophy!
Relativity wrote:
800 meter specialist wrote:You can mention 47 relay all you like, but there aren't any recent women in the sport that have hit the sub 48.5 open times of Koch, KratochvÃlová, Bryzgina, and Kocembová (Pérec in '96 trained with Koch's coach before randomly pulling out of the Sydney Olympics...).
Jelimo's the only modern era woman who's been close to the Soviets in the 800. She actually got closer to KratochvÃlová's 800 than modern era athletes have gotten to Koch's 400.
Don't you think there's a significant possibility that testosterone-boosting drugs--drugs that caused a number of ex-Soviet and East German athletes to pursue gender reassignment surgeries later in life--have a greater impact on mid distance than sprints or distance? Which might be why intersex athletes clearly dominate in the 8 but not in the short sprints or long distance events? This would also reasonably explain why the long sprint/shorter mid distance women's records haven't really been touchable in the modern era.
Ok forget the times run by Soviet athletes. Completely forget it. Drugs etc make all that a useless discussion. We don't know what was real.
As I showed in a previous post, comparing to men, women in the 800m are relatively far weaker than women in other events.
I don't know why, but I will speculate that this is due to there being no good talents in the 800m right now. Which makes Niyonsaba and Wambui seem even better.
Semenya is something else, she has real 400m speed.
Actually think about it. 1:55 is equivalent to 3:55 and there are fully accepted women running 3:55/3:56 right now. These same women can close out 1500m races in 800 times that would get someone into the 2016 Olympic 800m final. Even 49 mid has got to be worth 1:55. (I'm using boys performances get these equivalences btw)
Top 800m men can run 45/46. But not a single 800m girl can run 51. Some top 800m men can run elite 1500m times; around 3:30. The top 800m girls don't even touch the 1500m and the likes of Melissa/Sharp struggle to come within 15 seconds of Muir etc. This does not happen in the men's event.
If Dibaba decided to run an 800m tomorrow she would run 1:55, but the 800m is not fashionable in Ethiopia and she already doubles the 1500/5k.
+1
Dibaba should race the 800 this season.
Relativity wrote:
aserdfssdfd wrote:Actually, I believe he is a medical doctor, if I'm recalling the Trackie discussion correctly.
Also, medical info about Semenya's situation was leaked years ago, hence why "she" was threatening to sue the IAAF for 500 million dollars, or some ridiculous sum for destroying "her" professional reputation.
Semenya, sure. There was info released about them.
But the rest of them? Nonsense to diagnose them with a specific, rare medical condition from a photograph alone.
Of course this person is not a doctor, no doctor would be as insane as this.
I am a doctor and you are vastly overestimating the level of sanity in my profession.


Semenya has shown absolutely no class or morals whatsoever. Look at him showing off after his races, flexing his muscles and brushing off imaginary dust off his shoulders. Sticking out his tongue for the cameras etc. 


Also, Semenya knows that he has ten times the level of testosterone than the average female. If Semenya had any morals, ethics or class, he would normalize his testosterone levels with medication or surgery . . . or quit the sport . . . or compete in the mens category. But Semenya won’t do any of these. Semenya has every right to compete if he normalizes his testosterone levels (either by ruling or by personal choice). Otherwise, Semenya does not belong in these races. It is a travesty of justice, occurring in the name of political correctness. 


How can Semenya even be proud of his Olympic medal? Is that really how African nations want to win Olympic medals? By finding intersex/hermaphrodites from rural villages and throwing them into the women races?


Semenya has no ovaries, no uterus, no breasts and no secondary sexual characteristics of a woman. Semenya married a woman. I don’t see how on earth Semenya fits the description of a woman and why on earth Semenya should be allowed to compete against normal women. 


This truly is the end of women sports. In a few years if this trend continues, all world class competitions will be taken over by intersex / hermaphrodite athletes and regular woman will not stand a chance of winning, no matter how hard they train.


You have these PC white men on trackie trying to raise their status and reputation in their AWMDRS (all white male distance runner sorority). They are praising Semenya and saying that Semenya belongs in the same category as 'the greats'. It makes me want to vomit.


I think trying to raise your reputation by being super politically correct among the AWMDRS (all white male distance runner sorority) is not only clearly disingenuous, but really just empty talk. Such talk is cheap. 


Put your words into action and recruit some minority runners, or better yet, some intersex runners into your all white running clubs, then we will see if you really are truly supportive of such athletes. I have not seen this happen since I started running in Ontario three decades ago . . . and likely never will.


I personally think the only time the AWMDRS has any contact with a woman of colour is when they pour a bottle of Aunt Jemima maple syrup over their morning pancakes. 


But alas, they just report your post to Adam Stacey and he conveniently deletes it and then sends an email stating ‘your post does not contribute to the forum’. What he really should say is ‘your post is not PC enough for our AWMDRS forum’. All this in Canada - a country that (supposedly) has freedom of speech in their bill of rights. Not anymore thanks to good ‘ol Justin Trudeau.
I listened to an interview with Semenya and I thought it was a dude for about 3 minutes. "She" is a good enough runner and I hope this a freak occasion. I really don't want to start seeing finals with 4 or 5 dudes in it who are running 1:49. Melissa Bishop should claim that she won the female 800m.
Cheeplestase wrote:
I listened to an interview with Semenya and I thought it was a dude for about 3 minutes. "She" is a good enough runner and I hope this a freak occasion. I really don't want to start seeing finals with 4 or 5 dudes in it who are running 1:49. Melissa Bishop should claim that she won the female 800m.
Melissa Bishop isn't very good. Dibaba can run 1:57 in training.
Wanna know something funny?
SEMENYA WAS CLEARED TO COMPETE IN RIO.
If slow Bishop didn't like it, she could have protested. But she knows Semenya is a woman.
Barabbas wrote:
We all know how Melisssa Bishop and the rest of the women's 800 field got robbed in Rio. It's not the medalists' fault, but come on. That race was a travesty. I challenge LRC to take a stand to ignore the medalists in that race and rank MB #1 for the year. T&FN isn't going to do it. There is nothing to lose here. No one outside of the LRC community is going to give a damn about the LRC rankings anyway (no disrespect intended). I would guess that most folks here consider MB the #1 female at 800 anyway, so why not make it official? This gesture would be a small vindication for her and the other four women in that race. I know this sounds insensitive, but I believe it is how many of us who care about fair competition feel.
Didn't I see you on T.V., marching, yelling "Not my President" ?
Bishop will test positive first before three men are banned.
Old men wrote:
Bill Burr wrote:Everyone agrees that Bishop got robbed.
Except? The politically correct (PC) social justice warriors (SJWs) in her home of Ontario, Canada!
Yes this is true.
Caster Semenya is actually an anagram for: Yes, a Secret Man.
Caster Semenya is a man. He married a women. He identifies with being a man. Everyone thought he was a man . . . until he started appearing in women's 800m races!
This 'dude' and the dudes that won the Silver and Bronze, robbed three women of medals at the Olympic Games.
But that disgusting 53 year old individual named Steve Boyd from Kingston, Ontario - an arrogant narcissistic elitist POS, tries to raise his status and reputation among his pathetic little fraternity by acting all PC.
He has tried to show that he is the champion for the rights of minorities by defending this Semenya scum. While at the same time keeping his own running club all-white.
Boyd will also bully, insult, attack and eventually push out the door anyone who tries to post on that trackie.ca forum and disagree with his PC SJW fake ass bullshit.
#NeverScared #NeverPC
Letsrun posters in the dark ages. Woman marries a woman and so therefore she is a man lol
Also, she always lived as a woman.
Folks: it is actually very simple. The unfair advantage that Caster Semenya has can be safely taken away from him by surgically removing the endogenous testicles. That would bring his testosterone levels back down to completely normal levels. He has refused to do that.
The other way is to have him take medications that lower his testosterone levels. He was doing this. That is why his times slowed to about 2:00 for the 800m. But recently the IAAF discontinued that requirement. So he stopped taking those testosterone lowering meds. Now his testosterone levels are back up again and he is running 1:55.
This article explains this reversal of the rule:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/apr/17/caster-semenya-comeback-rio-olympics-gold
"the existing hyperandrogenism regulations law was suspended for two years – allowing any female athlete on testosterone‑suppressing medication to come off it."
So there you go. Semenya is no longer on those meds. As a result his testosterone levels are back up again. His previous 2:00 for the 800m would not even make the semi-finals. His 1:55 for the 800m won the Olympic gold medal. Such is the difference that this new IAAF rule has made for Semenya . . . and for Niyonsaba and Wambui.
Some numbers:
Those with 5-ARD hyperandrogenism have a significant advantage. To put things into perspective, normal testosterone range for men is 10 - 35 nmol/L (nanomole per liter), with an average in the low twenties, and for women it is 0.35 - 2.0 nmol/L, with an average of about 1.5.
The testosterone levels of athletes with 5-ARD is around 21 nmol/L.
If you surgically remove the endogenous testicles, a 5-ARD person would see their testosterone levels go completely down to normal. So less than 2.0 nmol/L.
** But if you lower your testosterone levels with medications, you can play around with the numbers. The IAAF has set an upper limit of 10 nmol/L. So you can just bring your T levels down from 21 nmol/L to say 8 nmol/L. Even though you still have T levels that are four times the level of the average woman, you are allowed so by the retarded IAAF rules!
This is a deeply tragic travesty of justice, in the name of bullshit political correctness.
To all you PC SJWs: Catching my drift? Or am I being obtuse?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKdUsJU-cQ0
#NeverPC #NeverScared #NeverAWMDRF
Am I living in the twilight zone? The Boston Marathon weather was terrible!
Is there a rule against attaching a helium balloon to yourself while running a road race?
How rare is it to run a sub 5 minute mile AND bench press 225?
Move over Mark Coogan, Rojo and John Kellogg share their 3 favorite mile workouts
Matt Choi was drinking beer halfway through the Boston Marathon
Mark Coogan says that if you could only do 3 workouts as a 1500m runner you should do these