Amherst Cross Country Team Suspended Following Email Chain

I think you need to learn a lesson. Commending the administration shows how self righteous you are. What lesson is there to learn? A female said it happens and that women do it as well. Also, our POTUS says these things as well. So you mean to tell me that it's wrong to follow the example of the president? Trump is a mentor but not for you politically correct clowns looking for any reason to cry fire when there isn't one. You are right though there is a lesson to be learned. Don't use email and don't do anything that will get you caught by the outside world.

Well said. My point was not to say that offensive comments are okay because they've been said before. The idea was that everyone has made comments to a similar effect, and one can't just call them morally bankrupt. Chances are, they have made similar comments, even if to a much lesser extent.

I'm not sure I fully agree with you on the impact of offensive comments. Surely saying some things can have an impact on people's views, but I don't necessarily believe that a joke objectifying a woman will actually affect how that woman is treated. Though we don't need to hash out the specifics, I understand your point.

While I do think it would be beneficial to eliminate these extreme types of comments, we should also acknowledge that talking about sex and how we feel about members of the opposite sex is natural. Commenting on a woman's appearance does not automatically mean she is objectified, and that the man is a misogynist. That kind of standard is unrealistic and doesn't help anyone.

I maintain that anyone who would betray his teammates, past or present, like this is a scumbag. Some things are sacred, and I believe private team messages are one of them. Teams are built on trust and companionship, and without those the team crumbles. There was a clear message from a captain about how if anyone felt that the line had been crossed, then they should speak to the captains and they would take action. Obviously, during he two years as a team member he did not ever take that initiative.

I appreciate your thoughtful response.

It goes to show that the reasoning makes perfect sense when you aren't filled to the brim with self-righteous BS. It's only innapropriate and damaging because some people are snitches and do more harm then good when they try to rat people out. I don't condone this kind of behavior but you have to take it for what it's worth and know that joking about things is different than how you would actually treat someone in real life.

Agreed on all counts. I think college is (among many other things) a time to learn the boundary between what is appropriate commentary and what isn't. For that learning to be effective, inappropriate commentary needs to be called out, or at least discussed, and (in general) it seems like that wasn't happening on the Amherst team. That said, it's important to make this part of a learning process instead of an opportunity for people to yell "shame," which happens far too much in cases like this.

My only side comment would be that maybe this teammate did try to take initiative and got shut down--but again, you seem to have a better sense than I do. If you say he didn't go through the appropriate channels, then I agree that's poor form.

Much obliged for the conversation, internet friend.

Did the letsrun message boards just have an intelligent exchange about respecting women between "Man Explaining" and "Van Gogh F-ck Yourself?"

More importantly, does Drew Padgett eat bread?

You think more harm was done than good? What harm was done? The boys are embarrassed, they'll miss an indoor season and, hopefully, they'll have learned their lesson and be on their way.

More so, you don't think that this and the other recent 'rankings' incident won't be talked about by other running teams? I know it will and that's why we (shouldn't) won't see anymore of these stories. Heck, we might even have some administrators, coaches and the like making an effort to stop these type of behaviors.

"I think what they did was wrong, but boyz will be boyz".

C'mon, man.....

That is... until one impressionable boy thinks this behavior is normal... he gets a little tipsy... and does ******* (whatever). That's how things work. Have you ever been around children, teens or college students in your life?

Would this be as big of an issue if a relevant team nearby, say Williams, or a Nationally relevant team like NCC, SUNY G, or Eau Claire said these things? How big of a pass is there if you are good.

Askin' for a friend btw.

Killer, You need some new friends. Anyone talking in this fashion would be asked to leave my peer group.

Do we know as yet what the punishment will be? What we hope is that the punishment will fit the crime, but maybe we define that level of punishment differently. Suspending everyone on the team from competing or training with their team for an entire season seems like a quite significant penalty to me, if that's what happens.

Moreover, I find it interesting that Amherst brought in a high level independent investigator -- apparently a significant escalation over what Harvard did with their soccer & cross country teams. Amherst admins are making a statement that the team's actions go beyond the purview of their own Dean of Student Conduct, that the situation isn't something that they should handle internally, like Harvard did -- Amherst is consciously and intentionally making this thing a pretty big deal.

Imagine if 4 years of your letsrun posts got leaked. How many people on here can legitimately say they wouldn't be at least a little embarrassed by some of the things they wrote. Especially when everything is taken out of context. I know I have some troll posts that wouldn't look so hot.

ask the tough ones wrote:

Imagine if 4 years of your letsrun posts got leaked. How many people on here can legitimately say they wouldn't be at least a little embarrassed by some of the things they wrote. Especially when everything is taken out of context. I know I have some troll posts that wouldn't look so hot.

And what if everyone participating in any thread where someone posted something offensive were banned? This site would dry up overnight.

This is the second xc team involved in such things. There will surely be many more. I would never have participated in this kind of thing, not via email, not in private conversation, because it is sleazy and disrespectful. But you cannot police speech and sexuality to this level without creating a totalitarian society--and creating a huge backlash, which we have seen in the election.

Princeton men's swimming has also now had their season cancelled due to speech in emails.

Speech should be limited to phone calls. Good riddance.

jjjjjj wrote:

This is the second xc team involved in such things. There will surely be many more. I would never have participated in this kind of thing, not via email, not in private conversation, because it is sleazy and disrespectful. But you cannot police speech and sexuality to this level without creating a totalitarian society--and creating a huge backlash, which we have seen in the election.

Nobody is actively policing this behavior, as evidenced by the fact this went on for some time and quite publically (in emails widely circulated to incoming freshman) without repercussion. Perhaps the total lack of oversight on the part of the coach/administration contributed to the team's brazen behavior and toxic culture? The team is being rebuked because of the extreme nature of their derogatory remarks which crossed obvious lines. Teams represent institutions and reflect either positively or negatively on the larger whole. The men's XC team is a disgrace to Amherst College.

lwao wrote:

Nobody is actively policing this behavior, as evidenced by the fact this went on for some time and quite publically (in emails widely circulated to incoming freshman) without repercussion. Perhaps the total lack of oversight on the part of the coach/administration contributed to the team's brazen behavior and toxic culture? The team is being rebuked because of the extreme nature of their derogatory remarks which crossed obvious lines. Teams represent institutions and reflect either positively or negatively on the larger whole. The men's XC team is a disgrace to Amherst College.

Are you honestly suggesting that the coach/administration have oversight of emails and actively police them?

jjjjjj wrote:

The men's XC team is a disgrace to Amherst College.

Get off your high horse. Such language used by the Amherst College men's XC team is deplorable, but to suggest that it is limited to this one team is BANANAS. Unfortunately they are one of the first and, as the Princeton swim team has now shown us, will not be the last. It has now become en vogue to expose athletic teams for language and action that has persisted in the athletic community for decades. This does not make any of their actions right, but today's college students live in a digital world and are being held excessively accountable due to the viral nature of these stories. It is a systemic issue that is not limited to this one team or college. I would bet my left nut that another story comes out in the next six months from the same school.

Having read the articles and the posts on this thread, my take:

- The Amherst admin is making too big a deal out of this. Not that they should just blow this off, but appointing an independent investigator? That's nuts. And spineless. Seems like it's a total CYA move.

- The best way to handle this is to have the coach review the emails. Have the coach put together a recommendation and get approval of the AD and someone in the admin of student affairs.

- My recommendation would be to give the team a warning that basically says, the next time we see any of this you're off the team. No questions asked. And, pull aside the guy(s) who actually wrote the offensive material or put pressure on the team members to write such material and give them an additional punishment (e.g., sit out indoor or outdoor). Finally, make the whole team go through some sensitivity training or the equivalent and certify the results.

- Put in place some monitoring. For example, let them know that their university email address will be monitored by the coaching staff for the remainder of their time at Amherst. Also, let them know what's unacceptable behavior (e.g., singling out an individual, demeaning anyone, it's not just on the university email system but also on any social media, etc).

- And, while I was discussing this with the team, I'd make it clear that they are putting my job at risk. And, they created a lot of work for me. So, the second strike will be cold and you're out. No questions asked. No appeals. Don't have mommy and daddy call me. That's it.

- Beyond that, I'd also say that a lot of teams do this stuff. I don't condone it. And I do think this is a teachable moment. Use it as a moment to teach, not to CYA.

The best plan is to have the coach review the emails? Really? To an outsider, that would not look too good- the coach is already in charge of the team, and this is what happened. Or maybe you meant, the coach already should have been monitoring what is sent to incoming team members?