Zach Miller Ultra Runner - Possible Doper or Proof of Development Possibilities??

Carpenter's record at Pikes is ridiculous for sure. 2:01 Ascent as a half split. High Vo2max helps at 14,000'. He also ran the downhill there amazingly fast. 2:19 marathoner on the roads...not the fastest...but not too shabby!Aside from Pikes and Leadville (and maybe a few mountain races in Europe) I'm not sure what other ultra results we have from him though?I'd say the Leadville record can for sure go down by somebody. He really excelled at all the high altitude races. I believe Carpenter ran a bit over 59-min at MT. WA. Zach ran about 62-63min there a few years ago. Joe Gray and I have gone 58-min there, but since I started doing ultras I've struggled in the 62-min range. That's just Mt. WA though. (all uphill, 12% ave grade on a road at 1800''-6000' elevation). Zach also ran the Pikes Peak ascent back with Gray and I (and an international field) back in 2014, but he wasn't altitude adjusted (and moved from sea level I believe). Where Zach's real talent is, is being able to sustain a hard pace/effort for hours on end after thousands of feet of climbing. In a short race under 2 hours I think lots of guys can beat him. In a 50-miler or a big mountain race (or ultra) he is very competitive though!! Even against 28-min 10km runners and 2:15 marathoners. Again the real key here is realizing how different events in the MUT Running realm really require different strengths. A road/track/flattish ultra correlates very well with road marathon speed...a mountain race or a very hilly ultra with over 10,000' of climbing with grades over 15% requires a different mix sometimes.Sometimes the 2:25 marathon guy with the "mountain legs" beats the 2:15 marathoner with the "track speed."...or at least it's really close. That's exactly what we saw at TNF50 on Saturday with Hayden and Zach (and then guys like me with sub 2:20 marathon PRs getting totally dropped off the back and bonking hard). The trails/mountains/hills can be a great equalizer and nobody is walking away easily with $10,000 and a CR anymore.

Jake77 wrote:

Matt Carpenter is actually fast. 34 minute pR for 10K is far from his best.

He has broken 50 minutes for the Cherry Blossom 10 miler so he has the ability to break 30 minutes for 10K.

I would love to see Zach Miller try to run Pikes Peak with 100% effort.

He probably has no shot of breaking course record but maybe a sub 3:40?!?

Doped to the gills. wrote:

SteelTownRunner wrote:

A 2:35 marathoner will never ever be able to challenge Kouros' 24 or 48hr records. His strength was that as a 2:24 marathoner

Get real, his strength was that he was doped to the gills, common knowledge amongst those in the know here in Australia, it's just some idiots elsewhere that think otherwise.

First I've heard about Kouros as a doper. I know that he punished himself beyond description. He was running into stationary objects in the 2014 6-day race at Across the Years, having gone a couple days without sleep. Joe Fejes ran 555 miles in that race; Kouros, in an attempt to catch him, ran 550. That at the age of 57.

theohiostate wrote:

Doped to the gills. wrote:

Get real, his strength was that he was doped to the gills, common knowledge amongst those in the know here in Australia, it's just some idiots elsewhere that think otherwise.

First I've heard about Kouros as a doper. I know that he punished himself beyond description. He was running into stationary objects in the 2014 6-day race at Across the Years, having gone a couple days without sleep.

Yeah, drugs will do that to you, funny that.

You should take a look at the website of Matt Carpenter. His range from road marathon up to the 100M Leadville course record that still stands is very impressive. Look at all the course records he holds. Look at how many races he has won. Why hasn't anyone come close to his Leadville 100M record?

You blow him off like he is no big deal without that many results. He has a lot more results and wins than you.

He lists all the races he has done over the years since 1981 at his website.

He also had a VO2max reading of 94.9 ml/kg/min taken at sea level once (in addition to the 90.2 ml/kg/min reading). The people doing the test thought that the equipment was broken.

I think that Matt Carpenter is the greatest mountain runner of all time.

El jamino. LetsDelete.com wrote:

I think that Matt Carpenter is the greatest mountain runner of all time.

he was off the course sleeping for 2 hours for the week. drugs may do that, but so will severe sleep deprivation, more severe than anything you've likely ever faced.

That is a brilliant comment to add to the discussion. Thank you for taking time out of your busy day.

Why did Zach run the TNF 50M race at 7:10 per mile and Sage ran the race at 7:58 per mile?

That is a difference of 48 seconds per mile!!!

Zach beat Sage by just under 40 minutes for a 50 mile race.

Zach had time to cool down and eat a relaxed lunch before Sage finished the race.

SteelTownRunner wrote:

he was off the course sleeping for 2 hours for the week. drugs may do that, but so will severe sleep deprivation, more severe than anything you've likely ever faced.

Hey, I think you may be getting it, some of it anyway.

Also, "more severe than you've likely ever faced", haha, idiot, you're on an anonymous message board, how would you know?

Yeah, but does he do it for the kids?

Ok. I'll start by saying I have only read the first post of this thread but am skeptical of what you are writing as I can't get through the 3rd paragraph without seeing a false-hood.

I coached Sage Canaday in college. He was nowhere near 14 flat. His best PB according to John Kellogg was 29:47.39. His 1500 pb was 3:55, 3000 was 8:22 and 5000 was 14:28-9.

McMillan converts a 29:47 to 14:20. JK converts it to 14:13ish.

Are you seriously asking this on LetsRun.com? Do you not know who the co-founder of this site is?

WELDON JOHNSON.

College pr at Yale 30:19. College PB during 5th year at Texas 30:13.

Lifetime PB - 28:07. So he came down 2:06 in the 10,000. So if he's improving by 2+ minutes in the 10k, that's pretty much 1 + minute in the 5k.

He never finished higher than 5th in the country in the Ivy League in the 10,000 and was 4th in the country professionally.

HopingI'mWrong wrote:

Does anyone have examples of someone who has developed from a >15 min 5k runner in college to a 14flat min 5k post-collegiate? This type of improvement is similar to going from 2:27 to 2:15 in a road marathon. I know loads of athletes who have made post collegiate improvements that would equate to 15-30 secs off their 5k time (6-8min off marathon). I can think of no examples of anyone dropping 60-75 secs (12min off marathon).

Brian Sell

Matt Carpenter ran a 3:22 marathon at over 17,000':

"In 1995, Carpenter accompanied a group of SkyRunners and several top Kenyan road runners to the Italian Research Pyramid in Nepal on the flanks of Everest, at an elevation of 16,410 feet. During their stay, they were constantly poked and prodded by researchers — subjected to regular submax and Max VO2 tests, coordination and reflex tests, blood tests, urine tests, you-name-it tests.

“The adjustments my body made in two days were the same as what the other athletes saw in two weeks,” Carpenter says. He attributes this to clean living; the scientists chalk it up to genetics.

Two weeks later, the group hiked up to 17,200 feet for the highest marathon in history, where the Kenyan coach expected his athletes — including the world’s third-ranked half-marathoner — to soundly defeat the mountain runners. Carpenter won in 3:22, 12 minutes ahead of his nearest rival. "

For reference, that is almost 3000' higher than any point in North America.

Rojo's right I only ran 14:29/29:47 in college... But he also coached me to a 2:21 marathon and getting 8th at NCAA Regionals in XC.This thread isn't about me though. I also don't think this thread is about "big improvements." - However, Wejo is a great example of a guy that put in smart work and improved a ton after college. Brian Sell was a sub 29-min 10km runner in college, but also had to put in a ton of work to make the Olympics in the marathon and run 2:10 eventually. Both big improvements through hard work. But running on the track/road races and running ultras in the mountains are very different. Zach was about a 31:00 10km runner in college from what I gather. I still honestly think he probably couldn't crack 30:00 for 10km now though (this is not to knock him...he kicked my butt several 50-mile races...it's just track speed isn't everything for the long haul). Again, what one does in hilly ultras/mountain races doesn't always require a super high Vo2max or Lactate Threshold of 5:00/mile pace on flat roads/tracks. It's about sturdy legs, taking in calories on the run, and climbing/descending ability for hours on end with thousands of feet of elevation change.Since he started ultras 3 years ago Zach has been winning. His improvement has been slow and steady. He hasn't been winning by huge margins or setting big CRs, but he routinely beats sub 2:20 marathoners and other "fast" track guys coming from low or even sub 14-min 5km backgrounds at key races. He is an honest, hard worker IMO and he is also a super nice guy.

Unleash the jaguar Camille. URP is turning into the US weekly of ultra running.

wordup wrote:

Unleash the jaguar Camille. URP is turning into the US weekly of ultra running.

Didn't Ron Daws go from a high school 10 minute two-mile to an average not far from that per mile when he made the 1968 Olympic team?

I admit Carpenter's record on Pikes is untouchable (IMO). He won a lot of mountain races...but again, he didn't do a ton of ultras (as that list and website shows). My whole point is short distance mountain racing and road marathoning (and xc below those distances for that matter) is a bit different from Long ultras in the hills/mountains.Notice Carpenter ran 6:50ish for 50-miles at TNF50 SF back in the day. His Leadville 100 record is very very good, but again those are the only two ultras I see from him. He crushed a lot of the "shorter" mountain races. 2:19 in the marathon is also pretty good...as is 59-min at MT. WA. I know 100 guys that can run a sub 2:20 marathon though. I personally know exactly what it takes to go sub 59min at MT. WA as well. This is not a knock on Matt and this thread isn't about Matt.This thread is about improvement in ultra trail running and Zach Miller and what is deemed as natural progressions (vs "unnatural or doped") in this niche of running. What we know is this:Zach has improved steadily over the past 3 years....but not by huge margins. He has always been a great ultra runner...especially at the longer events with more than 7-8,000' of climbing. Guys that run sub 2:20 marathons and sub 30-min 10kms usually are pretty good at all ultras...but they don't necessarily dominate and aren't always clearly the best at the most competitive ultras. They translate better to road ultras and other ultras with less than 6k-7k of climbing over 50-miles (and on non-techy trails)Guys who were 31-min + 10km runners like Zach in college (and who miss out on the World Mountain Running Champs team like Zach did at 12km and other shorter, higher Vo2max events), still can compete very well in mountain-trail (hilly) ultras of 50km and longer and often beat the super speedy track/road guys. Top guys are doping in the sport. A top 10 guy at UTMB was busted for EPO on a race day test. It gives one a huge advantage.

You did not say that Matt Carpenter's Leadville record was good. You said somebody could take his Leadville record down…FOR SURE.

Here is what you actually said Sage:

"I'd say the Leadville record can for sure go down by somebody."

"A road/track/flattish ultra correlates very well with road marathon speed...a mountain race or a very hilly ultra with over 10,000' of climbing with grades over 15% requires a different mix sometimes."

Read more:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=7915892&page=3#ixzz4S8CBfrlP

Who is the somebody? Is it you?

When will the somebody take down Carpenter's 2005 record of 15:42…for sure?

The Leadville 100 mile course has 15,600 ft. of altitude gain with an elevation range of 9,200ft to 12,620 ft. for the entire race.

Does that count for you as a 100Mile Ultra race with lots of climbing at high altitude?

Matt Carpenter also ran a 2:52:57 marathon at 14,350 ft. altitude and a road 2:19 marathon at sea level. His results do not support your theory.

Matt was great when you were about 4 years old.

How many times have you or Zach Miller won the Pikes Peak races or Leadville?

Let us all know.

You like to talk a lot.

Well said.

Matt Carpenter was 41 years old when he set the Leadville record.

It should be easy for you to take his Leadville record down…for sure.