JFK 50 Miler record crushed 5:21:29

If your slowest 10k is almost double your fastest 10km then...you must've lost a lot of weight? You need to think at the smaller margins of improvement for guys who have been running track since their school days (and not just Geb who probably just totally ran out of glycogen in his first marathon. After that he was fairly consistent and had the 10km times to back up his marathon and half performances). Course records in races with a long history and more competition usually fall slowly and steadily..by a few minutes here and there. My point: I don't buy that Jim is much more 'talented; than a lot of road-track guys that have crossed over to ultra-trails for the past half decade. His 5k time is much in line with guys like King and Laney and slower than Hawks and Bak. Most of those guys (except for Hawks who is younger) have also run in the Olympic Trials (road and track) multiple times. We can't even compare road and marathon times, but all we know is Jim has only put down a 1:08 half a year or two ago. There simply was not a single ultra-trail (or road or cross country) race that he did in 2015 or 2014 that showed any sort of indicator that he had the potential to destroy the "big time" records this year in established ultras with a long tradition. However, what he has done this year so far is probably the single most impressive season that any US ultra runner has ever had. That sharply contrasts with all the "competitive field" races he did last year and the year before, where he was not even close to making the podium in any of them. His quick recovery between hard efforts has also been insane this year. Case in point: only 9 days before he crushed both of Krar's Grand Canyon Records, he raced the Stagecoach Line 55km in AZ and ran a new CR of 3:30. It was a 34 minute PR for him on the course. I don't know if they changed the course between 2015 and 2016? - but if they didn't, that would be an improvement of almost 1 minute/mile on his average pace from last year. That is big - and it is also an exceptionally fast recovery time.

Sage is losing it.... Jealousy runs rampart.

"However, what he has done this year so far is probably the single most impressive season that any US ultra runner has ever had."

Not a chance. Hasn't won a major race with head to head competition. Throws in the towel when something goes wrong. A real competitor would fight through adversity. take off the rose colored glasses. stick a fork in him when the camels back breaks.

No, I wasn't heavy at all for my slowest 10K. I might have been even lighter than when I was at my fastest. I was just my first, and it took 58:xx, running legitimately as hard as I could - you could see my agony and effort in the little race photo proof that I still have somewhere. Later on I was able to do 29:28 for 6 miles in training, and I think I was in sub-30 10,000 shape at that time, but I never raced a 10,000 on the track. I didn't race at that time except for on-campus stuff (intramural XC, that I won 2 years, over redshirt D1 guys) because I didn't have a car, was shy, and didn't know how to get into legit races (this was the 80s, before internet). I had health issues with chronic fatigue or overtraining after college and was never the same again. But I did manage to record PRs of 25:0x for 5 miles and 32:06 for 10K on regular running, but no workouts or serious training.

No, I don't need to think smaller margins of improvement for guys running since their school days. Life and training is or can be much, much more chaotic than you make it out to be. I have see huge disparities in level of performance in myself, and the guys that I have raced for nearly 2 decades. What about wejo? He trained hard and raced hard for 4 years in college and ran only about 30 for 10,000, and then suddenly was running close to 28 flat? While also training in Flagstaff (clue your drugs angle...). Sometimes people figure out their training and make big jumps. Sometimes people are half-assing their training, like Jim in 2014. Sometimes, some years you just don't have it, or you don't bring it, or you aren't serious about training for many reasons, have other priorities, or your real job sucks and impacts your ability to train, none of the reasons needing to be excuses. In my personal experience, life and running is chaotic, not linear. When I brought up Geb, you make an excuse for him. Why didn't you do the same for Jim?

Even if you don't buy that Jim's thinking that he didn't come close to maxing out in college, you really think a 13:52 runner who runs a 1:08 half marathon actually trained seriously for the half marathon? An equivalent half marathon performance to that 5,000 is 5 minutes faster. He could have jogged a 1:08 in training at 3/4 effort when he was in 13:52 shape. I can't take you seriously when you write stuff like, paraphrasing, "Jim's only a 1:08 half marathoner," and then draw seriously distorted conclusions from that.

And I do buy that Jim's thinking that he didn't max out in college (he optimistically thinks that he could have run 13:20-25 if he focused on track after college). He'd be the one to know how maxed out he was, just like I know I certainly never came close to maxing out my PRs.

You are single minded about drugs and overly paranoid. The rest of us will consider Jim legit, barring someone opening up and saying something like, I was his supplier, or I injected him, or I was his housemate and found EPO in the fridge... and identifying themselves, like Armstrong's accusers. I don't think that's going to happen because I think he's legit.

Cool story bro,A common thread in my post is to show that jumping up to crazy long race distances like 50 or 100 milers from running a track 5km without any supporting high level performances inbetween is very interesting. Jim has improved by leaps and bounds this year and raced very frequently and recovered very fast. Tons of guys in college who barely run a sub 14 dream of running 13:20-25. How many actually do? How many actually move up to the marathon and perform close to what an "equivalency chart or calculator" tells them their track speed is worth for 26.2? I made up one excuse for Geb. Lots of guys flounder at their first 1-2 tries at the marathon. But then they get it....by their 3rd, 4th or 5th marathon they're looking at something close to their fastest career time usually (this is at the more elite level). Jim's been running for awhile...he was a Footlocker finalist in hs. Of course he is a very talented runner at the mile, 3k, 5km and even the 10km. Even if "half assing" his training (which you seem to know about), you'd think his "real long distance talent" for 50-100 miles would've shown through a bit more in ultras from 2014-2015

Before the race, Spinnler definitely knew that Walmsley had a good chance to beat the record. What are you talking about?

Wjjr wrote:

Apparently he also had professional photographers there to capture his Grand Canyon trail run. He go maximum publicity out of it.

quote]

Dude, that was JamJam who just happened to be in the area filming Whiskey Man attempting to set the FKT on the Arizona Trail.

Otherwise you would have had a couple photos from the North rim and the start/finish South Rim.

"If someone wants to stick on the ride, they're going to have a really, really long day," said Jim Walmsley, the two-time defending champ. "Bank on something going wrong because I wouldn't bank on staying with me."

...

"I should be finishing before noon," Walmsley said. "My goal is to go under 5:25."

To do that he'll need to take at least 10 minutes off Max King's record time of 5 hours, 34 minutes and 59 seconds from 2012.

Walmsley won last year's race in 5:47:37 — the JFK's No. 9 all-time performance — after taking the title in 5:56:31 in his debut in 2014.

...

...

"Is there anyone else in the field capable of going under Max King's record? I don't think so," JFK director Mike Spinnler said.

But course-record attempts at the JFK often haven't gone as planned.

"I think the only thing that's going to stop Jim Walmsley from winning three straight is him getting greedy, trying to set the course record — his goals being too lofty and him trying to run too fast and it backfiring on him," Spinnler said.

http://www.heraldmailmedia.com/sports/walmsley-chasing-history-at-jfk-mile/article_4c86472a-ad17-11e6-bd7f-6b7892db9d67.html

Yeah, exactly, Spinnler said Walmsley was the only one in the field capable of breaking King's record.

Did he think "anyone else" could? No

Changing your tune Numbersman? Before you said his inconsistency was a red flag, now you say "Lots of guys flounder at their first 1-2 tries at the marathon." You claimed the guy's Speedgoat bonk in his second ultra was sort of smoking gun showing that he lacked talent. But now you say lots of guys have trouble moving up in distance?

The second bit about sub-14 guys is even better: "How many actually move up to the marathon and perform close to what an "equivalency chart or calculator" tells them their track speed is worth for 26.2?" Not many, but here's a news flash for you: some actually do and it happens to be the ones who are full-time pros logging 140 mile weeks!

There are cheaters in all levels of athletics, but like the earlier poster said, unless there's real proof to offer your faulty argument comes off as some sort of McCarthyist witch hunt. No need to knock someone for breaking records, but if you catch some race photos of him hoping on a bike on the AT, please share.

First off, Jim has obviously never run a road marathon or a serious road race. We can compare to see how guys with very similar track times at 5km/10km and 3k steeple usually do in road half/full marathons and then how they do at ultra-trails from 50-100miles. Jim actually compares very well to Max King in all those "shorter distance" times, except he doesn't have has much experience because he is younger and has mostly avoided the roads.The only high caliber national meets he did run in recently at shorter distances was USA xc last year where he was soundly beat by over 40 guys and ran 5:22 per mile pace for a 12km. What did he run in college at NCAAs in xc? Jim didn't flounder in his first 1-2 ultras. He for sure didn't dominate though. He just ran at a very decent and understandably consistent level in many (while floundering in a couple) for nearly two straight years. Geez-us now I'm going to have to pull up his ultra sign up page...Let's see: Speedgoat was his 3rd or 2nd ultra, but that was a disaster (it happens). After his rather modest 5:56 winning time at the JFK50 in 2014 he went on to run the "Moab Red Hot 55km" in 2015 where he was handily beat by Alex Nichols and Rob Krar.Then he was 5th at Lake Sonoma 50 in 6:41.After that he was 24th at IAU Worlds 100km in 7:05. (after winning some small local races at 13km around AZ it appears)Then he won JFK50 in 5:47 (a decent and expected improvement from his 5:56 one year prior).This year he's simply just been on fire. Totally different level. Actually two levels better. Must be all the altitude training in Flag?

If anyone better than you is a cheater, there's a lot of cheaters out there.Go back to vlogging, videos & words, you're invincible in that arena.

His performances line up with his story perfectly. Very talented guy, who dabbled in ultras and had a learning curve before finding that he had an outstanding talent for it. You seem to believe there shouldn't be a learning curve. Of course he had high level performances between college and this year. He won JFK in 2014. That's a high enough level for me.

His statement about thinking he could have run a 5000 that fast is less about wishing he could do that and more about knowing that he had a lot more to give that wasn't tapped in college. Maybe you only know yourself, and you are 100% all-in on your running with no other things getting in the way, and that you must max out all your times from XC to the different track distances, but that isn't true for most runners.

I didn't know he was a Footlocker finalist. I just looked up his high school and college races and it's interesting. A Footlocker finalist is no joke and he was midpack, 23rd out of 40. Most of those guys are running sub-9:00 or around 9:00 for 3200/2-mile. Arcadia probably had 10-20 guys running 9:00 every year when he was in high school. Yet, according to Athletic.net, his high school 2 mile PR is only 9:39 (and 3200 PR is only 9:40). Yet he was only 5 places behind German Fernandez in the Footlocker West Regional, mixing it up with Luke Pushkedra. That shows how little he cares about the linearity of his track progression in HS. That probably blows your mind. Athletic.net doesn't list him in high school cross country, though he obviously did Footlocker. Not sure if that means he didn't race for his school, or that those results were never submitted. In college, he only ran the 10,000 twice. The first time was in 33:12, really just a jog for most average college male runners. That probably doesn't fit into your perspective that all your times should be pretty close every time you run an event, and that you need to have pretty progression that you can plot smoothly onto a graph - or you're doping.

I don't know and have never met Jim personally. I only know of his training from his interviews since this summer, and from following him on Strava since after Western States. No, I don't think the extent of his talent for ultras should have been apparent in 2014 and 2015 because it should he was still on a learning curve and didn't have full commitment to training. Some of his special talent really only became during Western States - that he could last beyond 100K and not crash. Canaday and Zach Miller haven't demonstrated that talent yet. In the Ginger Runner interview, I think it was, he revealed that he has a special ability to eat a lot and digest it while running fast. I think Canaday was puking at WS past halfway. Miller was able to recover somewhat from his crash at UTMB to salvage a top 10. I'm not sure you take drugs to get that special eating ability.

Have you ever gone for a period without training seriously? You don't seem to understand up and downs in performance. It's not like Jim had a obligation to run and maintain the same level of performance or show a progression after college before deciding to get into ultras. He could have quit running like most former college runners. What are your race times and progressions? Every time you race, do you run within seconds of your previous time? Are your PRs constantly being Bubka'ed down by a second or so every once in a while? Do you never take a break from racing and/or training, so you don't know that people slow down when they don't train.

6:25 pace for 50 miles doesn't sound so crazy.

Elites run sub-6 for easy pace every day, twice a day, 120+ miles in a week. If your marathon pace is sub-5, and your easy pace is sub-6, I would think 50 mile pace would be somewhere in between, no?

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

ted R wrote:

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

Is that a Lance Armstrong quote?

Experiencing fat-burning and refining that system takes time. Just ask any elite. Jim has been building his body to manage his fuel over long, hard distances.

Dude is a beast. Keep crushing.

I want a BANG. BANG. tee shirt.

NumbersMan, is that you Sage? Can't sleep since last Saturday?

To all those saying "He's not making enough money to be on drugs!", if he wins TNF in 11 days that will be Close to $15,000 in just three weeks/2 races (not including whatever bonuses he has on his Hoka contract).

He trains in Flagstaff, and has made insanely massive improvements in just one year. So we can roll our eyes at the track/roads but ultra-guys are just too "pure" to raise suspicion?