How do elites do their high end aerobic runs?

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  • LR poster
    3 years ago 11/18/2016 4:51pm CST
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    High end aerobic runs, also known as steady state, aerobic threshold, is a pace about 30s/mile slower than marathon race pace. It is about 80% max heart rate, lower if you're not fit.

    So here's the question, are high end aerobic runs necessary? What benefits does it have? The general trends are it's good for middle distance (seb coe and el guerrouj), but is it also beneficial for long distance runners?

    How do elite runners schedule high end aerobic runs in their training? (percent of total weekly mileage, duration, length, frequency?) How would you schedule it in a 5K training schedule of 50 to 70 mpw?

    Sorry if this is a bit of a rant:)
  • rant your point
    3 years ago 11/18/2016 4:53pm CST
    re: LR poster
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    All competitive running is high end aerobic so why wouldn't they or you do it?

    Your post wasn't a rant, at all.
  • MAF Diver
    3 years ago 11/18/2016 5:02pm CST
    re: LR poster
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    Steady state? You mean MAF pace.

    That may originally be what steady state meant, but it's been abused to mean medium intensity. I see many runners, elites included, running at marathon or just below their marathon pace when given steady state. WRONG!

    MAF corrects this farce by encouraging people to run at the top end of their aerobic system.
  • llllloooooollllllllll
    3 years ago 11/18/2016 5:14pm CST
    re: LR poster
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    Progress. Begin at easy pace, then hit the aerobic threshold pace. Lots of elites do it that way.
  • Uhmmmmmmmm
    3 years ago 11/18/2016 5:56pm CST
    re: LR poster
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    Wouldn't high end aerobic be better described as anaerobic threshold through aerobic threshold (AeT being one minute slower per mile than 5k pace) I've heard both of those terms, and the paces in between, called high end aerobic or steady state. 30 second per mile slower than marathon pace seems far too slow.
  • reed
    registered
    3 years ago 11/18/2016 6:17pm CST
    re: Uhmmmmmmmm
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    Just saying 30sec slower than MP is ludicrous, you should use a percentage. if your MP is 6:00 then 6:30s are easy. But if your MP is 8:00 then 8:30 isn't much easier.

    My MP is about 6:00, and I'd call anything from 6:05-6:20 "steady state" even going down to 5:50s if it's a shorter segment
  • Uhmmmmmmmm
    3 years ago 11/18/2016 6:30pm CST
    re: reed
    Forum Index
    reed wrote:

    Just saying 30sec slower than MP is ludicrous, you should use a percentage. if your MP is 6:00 then 6:30s are easy. But if your MP is 8:00 then 8:30 isn't much easier.

    My MP is about 6:00, and I'd call anything from 6:05-6:20 "steady state" even going down to 5:50s if it's a shorter segment


    Time wise I was thinking more in-line with you skill level. Not trying to sound elitist, I just use times relevant to my own training and those around me; this happens to be around you paces and not at 8:00 miles.

    But, we are talking about "high end aerobic" which, for the most part, can be defined as ~marathon pace.
  • MAF Diver
    3 years ago 11/18/2016 6:54pm CST
    re: Uhmmmmmmmm
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    Uhmmmmmmmm wrote:

    reed wrote:

    Just saying 30sec slower than MP is ludicrous, you should use a percentage. if your MP is 6:00 then 6:30s are easy. But if your MP is 8:00 then 8:30 isn't much easier.

    My MP is about 6:00, and I'd call anything from 6:05-6:20 "steady state" even going down to 5:50s if it's a shorter segment


    Time wise I was thinking more in-line with you skill level. Not trying to sound elitist, I just use times relevant to my own training and those around me; this happens to be around you paces and not at 8:00 miles.

    But, we are talking about "high end aerobic" which, for the most part, can be defined as ~marathon pace.


    High end aerobic is not marathon pace. Marathon pace is low end lactate threshold. Saying otherwise just falls into that whole not running your easy runs too fast argument that ubiquitously gets agreed on in this forum.

    reed is right in that you should calculate on a percentage, based on something closer to lactate or VO2 like your 5k time.
  • Uhmmmmmmmm
    3 years ago 11/18/2016 7:14pm CST
    re: MAF Diver
    Forum Index
    MAF Diver wrote:

    Uhmmmmmmmm wrote:

    reed wrote:

    Just saying 30sec slower than MP is ludicrous, you should use a percentage. if your MP is 6:00 then 6:30s are easy. But if your MP is 8:00 then 8:30 isn't much easier.

    My MP is about 6:00, and I'd call anything from 6:05-6:20 "steady state" even going down to 5:50s if it's a shorter segment


    Time wise I was thinking more in-line with you skill level. Not trying to sound elitist, I just use times relevant to my own training and those around me; this happens to be around you paces and not at 8:00 miles.

    But, we are talking about "high end aerobic" which, for the most part, can be defined as ~marathon pace.


    High end aerobic is not marathon pace. Marathon pace is low end lactate threshold. Saying otherwise just falls into that whole not running your easy runs too fast argument that ubiquitously gets agreed on in this forum.

    reed is right in that you should calculate on a percentage, based on something closer to lactate or VO2 like your 5k time.



    So when I keep hearing over and over again to run many miles at a high end aerobic pace, and through trial and error I have found my marathon pace to be a good steady state effort that I can often run at without feeling too drained, I am wrong?

    So what is my exact calculated high end aerobic pace with a 15:00 5k?
  • Former Sub 13:30
    3 years ago 11/18/2016 10:20pm CST
    re: Uhmmmmmmmm
    Forum Index
    It's been awhile since, but when I did them it was done as a progression run. I would have like 10-12 miles and start at an easy pace and get faster every mile. The whole second half of the run I was instructed to get to 1 minute off of 5k feeling for the pace. They are usually supposed to feel comfortable, with a natural progression leading to almost an invigorating feeling at the end. Eventually we put them in the hills and they preceded tempos. After I was in the tempo phase, the last 25-30 minutes of my long runs became this "1 minute off 5k rhythm".

    To be honest, I never thought they were beneficial because I was all about "hard training" and these were too easy. Looking back on it, those and tempos/long hills were the backbone of training. They set you up to transition nicely into that harder training. Keeping them around at the end of your long runs really help too.
  • Former D2 now 51
    3 years ago 11/19/2016 10:34am CST
    re: Uhmmmmmmmm
    Forum Index
    I use McMillan, and his system is probably as close to pure Lydiard as any. He quantifies steady state pace as approximate race pace for races of 1:15 to 2:30 in duration. For some people M pace would be in that range (people who run marathons under 2:30) but at this point in my life it's faster than M pace.

    But in McMillan's system a steady state run is not a daily run, and as such it might be above the level of effort described by the OP as 'high end aerobic'. 'Easy' pace for daily runs is approximate 4:00 race pace (which is an extrapolation for most people) and slower, and this number is probably close to aerobic threshold. Some people might be close to their MAF heart rate at this intensity, others will be above or below it.
  • fred
    registered
    3 years ago 11/19/2016 11:26am CST
    re: Former D2 now 51
    Forum Index
    Originally, McMillen had steady state as between half marathon to 30k race pace.

    Forget the Maff stuff.
  • Back to the topic
    3 years ago 11/19/2016 8:02pm CST
    re: fred
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    Someone answer the OP's question?
  • jack the louis
    3 years ago 11/19/2016 8:13pm CST
    re: Back to the topic
    Forum Index
    Back to the topic wrote:

    Someone answer the OP's question?

    http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4888276
  • odkfk
    3 years ago 11/19/2016 8:57pm CST
    re: reed
    Forum Index
    reed wrote:

    Just saying 30sec slower than MP is ludicrous, you should use a percentage. if your MP is 6:00 then 6:30s are easy. But if your MP is 8:00 then 8:30 isn't much easier.

    Based on what? Why is that ludicrous?
  • 17 y/o at 70 mpw
    3 years ago 12/01/2016 12:15am CST
    re: odkfk
    Forum Index
    This thread is good, need to bump.
    That being said, it has been in training theory for a while. Lydiard advised to do them EVERYDAY during base (who thought lydiard was just lons slow 100 mile weeks now?) Renato Canova, probably the best coach in the distance running world right now, advised to do them daily as well during the fundamental phase (aka base), and 1-2 times during the racing season.
    The heart rate is about right, and i'd say that it's more like 20 sec/mile slower than marathon pace. Duration is about an hour, or can be in the form of progression runs if feeling not very good.
  • Sara Palin
    3 years ago 12/01/2016 8:36am CST
    re: Uhmmmmmmmm
    Forum Index
    Uhmmmmmmmm wrote:

    So when I keep hearing over and over again to run many miles at a high end aerobic pace, and through trial and error I have found my marathon pace to be a good steady state effort that I can often run at without feeling too drained, I am wrong?

    So what is my exact calculated high end aerobic pace with a 15:00 5k?

    You are probably running your marathons too slower than your optimum. High end aerobic pace should be slower than marathon pace. I can recover from a marathon pace run at 4-6 miles pretty easily, but I only did that to practice pacing. I can recover from a steady state run of 15 miles pretty easily, which I did all the time.

    At 15 minute 5K, you could be popping off 2:22-2:25 marathons and your steady state pace would be 6:00 to 6:05. I'm guessing you are running 2:40 marathons and getting beat by a lot of people you beat at the shorter stuff.
  • Broeski
    3 years ago 12/01/2016 8:41am CST
    re: MAF Diver
    Forum Index
    MAF Diver wrote:

    Steady state? You mean MAF pace.

    That may originally be what steady state meant, but it's been abused to mean medium intensity. I see many runners, elites included, running at marathon or just below their marathon pace when given steady state. WRONG!

    MAF corrects this farce by encouraging people to run at the top end of their aerobic system.

    MAFF is a crock, boy.
  • Bob Schul Country
    3 years ago 12/01/2016 8:44am CST
    re: LR poster
    Forum Index
    You guys can base all these paces on race performance but the correlation between the 2 is not as accurate as heart rate.

    60-75% max heart rate is aerobic (low to middle)
    75-85% (up to 88% in trained individuals) is considered high end aerobic

    88-92% Lactate threshold

    Above that oxygen absorption cannot keep up with energy demands and you are no longer working in an aerobic state.
  • Nhrunnah
    3 years ago 12/01/2016 9:44am CST
    re: Sara Palin
    Forum Index
    Sara Palin wrote:

    Uhmmmmmmmm wrote:

    So when I keep hearing over and over again to run many miles at a high end aerobic pace, and through trial and error I have found my marathon pace to be a good steady state effort that I can often run at without feeling too drained, I am wrong?

    So what is my exact calculated high end aerobic pace with a 15:00 5k?

    You are probably running your marathons too slower than your optimum. High end aerobic pace should be slower than marathon pace. I can recover from a marathon pace run at 4-6 miles pretty easily, but I only did that to practice pacing. I can recover from a steady state run of 15 miles pretty easily, which I did all the time.

    At 15 minute 5K, you could be popping off 2:22-2:25 marathons and your steady state pace would be 6:00 to 6:05. I'm guessing you are running 2:40 marathons and getting beat by a lot of people you beat at the shorter stuff.



    I was posting under the handle ummmm earlier in the thread. I have never actually run a marathon, but have used equivalent performance charts to see where I would be at. The reason I use marathon pace as a baseline is from the Lydiard books I have read. His 3/4 effort runs were "sub-threshold" or marathon pace and were run (if I remember right) for 10 miles twice a week. I use this as a guideline, BUT my high end aerobic runs are whatever feels right for the day. A strong, floating feeling that I know I can hold for a while is my "high end aerobic" pace for the day. Sometimes it's a bit slower than marathon pace, sometimes a little faster.