Yes, I do need to relax. I have some time off coming up for Christmas, and I always enjoy this time of year.
Happy running to you...
Yes, I do need to relax. I have some time off coming up for Christmas, and I always enjoy this time of year.
Happy running to you...
Below is my training plan for my next marathon, which is based on my training plans for my two previous marathons (both top 10 masters finishes in world majors). They are based on Daniels plan. I only list the quality days. Other days are all done at easy distance pace - a pace wehre I could hold a conversation comfortably for the duration of the run (6:40 to 7:20 pace for me most days, depending on the day). Week 1 is this week
1:
5 x1200 @ 5k pace w/3:00 active rest; 9 miles total
2:
3 x 1600 @ 5k pace w/3:30 rest; 8 miles total
3 miles up, 4 miles tempo, 3 miles down
3:
4 x 1600 at 5k pace w/3:00-4:00 active rest; 9 miles total
2 mile warm up; 5 x 1600m cruise intervals; 8 miles easy
4:
8 x 1000m at 5k pace with 2:00 active rest; 10 miles total
5:
2.75 mile warm up; 2 x 2 mile cruise intervals; 7 miles easy
5k race
6:
6 x 1200 @ 5k pace w/3:00 active rest; 9 miles total
2 mile warm up; 5 x 1 mile cruise intervals with 1:00 rest ; 8 miles easy
7:
2 miles up; 4 x 2 miles tempo w/2:00 rest; 2 miles down
20 miles easy
8:
2 mi up; 4 x 1 mile cruise intervals w/1:00 rest; 5:00 rest; 3 x 1 mile cruise intervals w/1:00 rest; 2.5 mi down
2 mi up; 4 x 1 mile cruise intervals w/:60-:80 rest; 8 mi easy; 20 min tempo ; 2 mi down
9:
13 miles at marathon pace; 17 miles total
4 mile race
10:
2 mi up; 3 mi tempo; 3:00 rest; 3 mi tempo; 3:00 rest; 2 mi tempo; 2 mi cool down
20 miles easy
11:
3 mi up; 7 x 1 mile at tempo w/1:00 rest; 3 down
2 mile warm up; 2 x 2 mi tempo w/2:00 rest; 10 mi easy; 3 mi tempo; 2 mi easy
12:
2 mi up; 4 x 2 mile at tempo pace with 2:00 rest; 2 mi down
2 mi up; 13 miles at marathon pace in half marathon race setting; 2 mi down
13:
22 miles easy
15k race
14:
8 miles easy; 6 x 1 mile at tempo pace w/1:00 rest; 2 miles easy
2 mi up; 4 x 1 mile at tempo pace w/1:00 rest; 10 miles easy; 4 x mile at tempo pace w/1:00 rest; 2 miles down
15:
5 miles easy; 3 miles tempo; 5 miles easy; 3 miles tempo; 2 miles easy
10k race
16:
3 miles easy; 3 mile tempo; 3 miles easy; 3 miles tempo; 2 miles down
2 mi up; 13 miles at marathon pace in half marathon race setting; 2 mi down
17:
5 miles easy; 3 miles tempo; 5 miles easy; 3 miles tempo; 2 miles cool down
2 miles easy; 2.5 miles tempo; 3 min rest; 2.5 miles tempo; 5 miles easy - 12 miles total
18:
2 mi up; 4 x 1200 @ tempo pace w/2:00 rest; 1 mi down
I will give you the Daniels response because I believe in the physiology that underlies the Daniels approach and my experience has borne out his principles. Subjectively, you should be able to comfortably maintain a conversation for the duration of all of your non-workout runs. Objectively, based on you being a 3:02 marathoner, I am guessing that is around 8:00 pace most days, with a range of maybe 10 to 15 seconds on either side of that depending on the day.
outsiderunner wrote:
Okay, Smoove, what do you think my easy pace should be? I am asking you, the top 10 NYC masters guy, and am not looking for some type of standard JD response (or that of some other coach). There should be enough info here about me for you to make an informed response.
Thanks in advance.
Very well, Smoove...
Is it okay to finish fast, say the last mile or two, of must the 7:45-8:15 range you (and JD) prescribe be maintained throughout the run?
I would counter that with this question: what do you think you are achieving by finishing at faster than conversational pace? What physiological changes are you effectuating? I'd submit that you are not achieving any adaptation. To the extent that you think there is some psychological benefit, I'd submit that the cost in which form of the toll on your body of running harder than necessary and the potential impact on future workouts offsets the psychological benefit.
Smoove,
Thanks for posting your plan. I always find it helpful to see what other experienced runners do. I've read Daniels book and like his philosophy. I find it similar to McMillan, which I currently base most of my training off. Reason why I haven't followed Daniels yet is his mid-week workout (or quality # 2). In his new 2Q plan these workouts go up to 18 miles. I like the workouts on paper but just can't commit to that mileage on a non-weekend day. But it seems like you might have modified some of the mileage on quality # 2 days to suit you? Interesting.
Smoove wrote:
I would counter that with this question: what do you think you are achieving by finishing at faster than conversational pace? What physiological changes are you effectuating? I'd submit that you are not achieving any adaptation. To the extent that you think there is some psychological benefit, I'd submit that the cost in which form of the toll on your body of running harder than necessary and the potential impact on future workouts offsets the psychological benefit.
Outsiderunner - I would also ask what quality workouts are you doing weekly where you feel like you can run much faster at the end of your easy days in between hard workouts? I feel like if you are working efficiently hard on your hard days you will probably want to keep your easy days easy (most of the time).
I thought a dose of something at a faster pace might yield some adaptation, but only if one were recovering well after runs. I gather I was wrong.
I am a lawyer, not a physiologist, so who am I to say?
I will tell you that I have achieved all the adaptation that I have found necessary by way of my quality days being run at tempo or 5K pace, as prescribed and my easy distance days being easy distance pace as described.
This will be my last post on this thread. Should you want honest discussion of the issues, buy the Daniels book, read it and feel free to email me with questions.
Smoove wrote:
Below is my training plan for my next marathon, which is based on my training plans for my two previous marathons (both top 10 masters finishes in world majors).
Can I just jump in here and point out Smoove's humility when he says "both top 10 masters finishes in world majors." Dude was in the top 1 masters finishers for one of those. Respect. Not for the speed, but for the attitude....but also for the speed.
During the 24-week marathon build-up, my coach gave me a variety of workouts, mostly long intervals at LT pace. Earlier in the cycle, I did some 4x1200s at VO2 max pace. To be honest, I tend to not like VO2 max pace. Overall, I liked the workouts, and did well with them. They were, of course, tougher in July and August, as a result of the heat.
I think I will go without a coach a while, and see what happens. I will use the two books and the info I have received here, and see how the next period goes. I must admit that runs of continuous 7:45-8:15 pace will seem quite odd. I gather one can get accustomed to anything, though.
David S. Pumpkins wrote:
Smoove wrote:Below is my training plan for my next marathon, which is based on my training plans for my two previous marathons (both top 10 masters finishes in world majors).
Can I just jump in here and point out Smoove's humility when he says "both top 10 masters finishes in world majors." Dude was in the top 1 masters finishers for one of those. Respect. Not for the speed, but for the attitude....but also for the speed.
I have been reading his posts here on the forum for a while, and I knew long ago that he was the real deal.
Realer than Real Deal Holyfield?
Thanks, Smoove...I ordered the Daniels book over the weekend.
I just wrote down your e-mail address. Actually, I have wanted it for some time now.
Peace and happy running...
D O double G wrote:
Realer than Real Deal Holyfield?
Well...you know what I mean. :-)
Good stuff, smoove. Thanks for sharing. I've gotten away from the TLT runs because they are so painful but its probably time I go back to them again.
It is the VO2 max track stuff that I find painful, painful in the chest/breathing, but not in the legs.
How is your achilles doing, angryjohnny?
you are on it wrote:
I feel like this thread has taken a turn for the worst.
10/10
Freudian psychoanalysis wrote:
[quote]outsiderunner wrote:
Thus, I do not mind discussing training, etc., but I am getting "fatigued" by the feeling of being "on trail" and by the recollection of the feeling I had when I knew I made a wrong turn and that it would cost me a shot at a PR.
Your use of the phrase "on trail" is obvious evidence of your subconscious conflict about getting lost during your marathon race, which is leaking into your post at this forum.
11/10
The achilles is good. I had one false start about three weeks ago so I took another week off and doubled down on the eccentric heel drops. I've been running consistently now for about a week and just this morning declared myself healed. Hopefully I didn't jinx it. Boston looms...
Outside runner. I'll give you the best advice on here. Only YOU know how your body adapts to training. Only YOU know what is best for YOU.
You are past the point of these cookie cutter programs. Use your head and listen to your body. Remember, YOU got yourself a 3:02 in your first attempt, not JD, not PF, not Hansons.
Do what YOU think is best. No one knows YOU better.