Also, I think this blog post is worth 3 minutes of your reading time. Everytime I start to worry about things that don't really matter THAT much, I hark back to this.
http://phe800.blogspot.com/2016/02/the-art-of-keeping-main-thing-main-thing.html
Also, I think this blog post is worth 3 minutes of your reading time. Everytime I start to worry about things that don't really matter THAT much, I hark back to this.
http://phe800.blogspot.com/2016/02/the-art-of-keeping-main-thing-main-thing.html
Good stuff, darkwave, especilaly the "bottom line" advice about being an "adaptable perfectionist."
darkwave wrote:
Also, I think this blog post is worth 3 minutes of your reading time. Everytime I start to worry about things that don't really matter THAT much, I hark back to this.
http://phe800.blogspot.com/2016/02/the-art-of-keeping-main-thing-main-thing.html
The "main" things for an 800 runner competing against the field are not the same as for a marathoner competing against the clock. For example, I would argue that for the marathon, the weather -- in particular the temperature and humidity -- is one of the most "main" factors. I also thing that hydration, nutrition, and staying off your feet before the race are very important from someone going 26.2.
Agreed, angryjohnny. You can tear through a PR in a hot weather 800m while mildly hungover on little sleep with questionable nutrition over the previous few days if you've done the workouts. The circumstances aren't at all the same for a marathon.
Excellent points, angryjohnny, as there are clear differences. Weather and other such factors can really affect one's time in a marathon. Anyone who has run one would know this. I thought the spirit of the article was good, and that is how I took it, and also what I think darkwave had in mind in posting it.
And what exactly are you going to do about the temperature and humidity?
Nothing, and neither are the other competitors. You live with it, and you adjust your race plan accordingly.
You are missing the bigger point, perhaps just to be argumentative. The bigger point is that your training and mental state are the primary factors that are going to impact your race. Make sure you have those things right, because those are the most important things, and those are the things that you can control.
Smoove wrote:
And what exactly are you going to do about the temperature and humidity?
Nothing, and neither are the other competitors. You live with it, and you adjust your race plan accordingly.
It only took three whole sentences but you managed to both contradict yourself and answer your own question. I gather that's why they call you smoove?
angryjohnny wrote:
darkwave wrote:Also, I think this blog post is worth 3 minutes of your reading time. Everytime I start to worry about things that don't really matter THAT much, I hark back to this.
http://phe800.blogspot.com/2016/02/the-art-of-keeping-main-thing-main-thing.htmlThe "main" things for an 800 runner competing against the field are not the same as for a marathoner competing against the clock. For example, I would argue that for the marathon, the weather -- in particular the temperature and humidity -- is one of the most "main" factors. I also thing that hydration, nutrition, and staying off your feet before the race are very important from someone going 26.2.
That matter, but not as much as going out too fast or tapering wrong like OP did.
Read carefully, I did not suggest that you do anything about the weather. What I suggested is that you change your race plan and move on. I stand by the fact that you cannot do anything about the weather, only your mindset.
Honestly, do you think that keeping your focus on the externalities is beneficial?
Don't get me wrong, I am a consistent weather watcher. I have an abundance of habits for the day before and the day of a race. But those things are about managing the anxiety that races bring about and not about whether I am ready to perform to the best of my ability.
Yes, nutrition and hydration impact your race. Yes, bad weather can impact your time, but they are the most important things relating to your performance (I had to adjust my NYC time goal in 2014, but I still managed a top 10 masters finish). Folks need to spend more time getting their workouts - which dictate 90-95% of your performance - right before they expend endless energy on the things which impact the other 5%.
Outsiderunner, the pdf file here is an easier-to-read format for the Hadd training post I linked to earlier:
http://www.angio.net/personal/run/hadd.pdf
Also, the "Pete" milesplit thread that's referenced in the Letsrun thread I mentioned is a worthwhile read, as well.
Whether Daniels, "Hadd," Pfitzinger, etc., understanding the concept of "optimal training paces," I think, is key.
BTW, as I may have mentioned previously, the last time I went under 3 hours, I followed Pfitzinger's marathon plan from the 1999 "Road Racing for Serious Runners." The schedules are specific, but, with an understanding of the underlying theories, I wouldn't say "rigid." There's room to adapt for one's personal schedule, or to accommodate additional racing, etc.
Not really related, but I was a spectator at the 1984 Olympic Trials, when Pete Pfitzinger won. Also, I competed against him back in our high school days ... well, more correctly "ran in a few of the same races." I was certainly not competitive with him!
angryjohnny wrote:
Smoove wrote:And what exactly are you going to do about the temperature and humidity?
Nothing, and neither are the other competitors. You live with it, and you adjust your race plan accordingly.
It only took three whole sentences but you managed to both contradict yourself and answer your own question. I gather that's why they call you smoove?
Okay, okay enough with the insults. I don't know smoove personally but he goes out of his way to help people out in these forums.
I feel like this thread has taken a turn for the worst. At this point I don't really care why OP took a wrong turn or if the weather impacted his race. We all know weather plays a factor in marathon pacing but that's not the issue here.
OP - you came on this thread asking for advice from a bunch of strangers. You ignored just about all of that advice. You made a lot of excuses for your underperformance in both marathons, some legit, some not. You got some sympathy and some ribbing. You deserved both - the former for coming close to your goal but the latter because you ignored good advice given and seemed to shoot yourself in the foot through poor race execution. You asked for more advice on how to structure training and races for 2017. Not entirely clean whether you will act on this advice or ignore it like before.
At the end of the day, the only one you have to impress with your marathon PR is you, outsiderunner. At your level it's fairly irrelevant compared to other obligations like your wife and job. But it's important to you. So now it's time to forget about the past and excuses and get down to business of earning your sub-3, which I think you're capable of. You have some good advice in this tread from runners who are more experienced than you and want you to succeed. You should listen to them. Otherwise you might be back here trying to explain away another lost year. You'll have only yourself to blame.
Thanks so much, Allen1959, as this is very kind of you. I appreciate the background information you provide, as it is interesting.
Have a blessed holiday season and happy running to you!
Allen1959 wrote:
Outsiderunner, the pdf file here is an easier-to-read format for the Hadd training post I linked to earlier:
Ooops, Looks like I didn't link that correctly. The correct link is in the third post of the MileSplit thread.
Smoove wrote:
Read carefully, I did not suggest that you do anything about the weather. What I suggested is that you change your race plan and move on. I stand by the fact that you cannot do anything about the weather, only your mindset.
Honestly, do you think that keeping your focus on the externalities is beneficial?
Don't get me wrong, I am a consistent weather watcher. I have an abundance of habits for the day before and the day of a race. But those things are about managing the anxiety that races bring about and not about whether I am ready to perform to the best of my ability.
Yes, nutrition and hydration impact your race. Yes, bad weather can impact your time, but they are the most important things relating to your performance (I had to adjust my NYC time goal in 2014, but I still managed a top 10 masters finish). Folks need to spend more time getting their workouts - which dictate 90-95% of your performance - right before they expend endless energy on the things which impact the other 5%.
I'm not sure we are using the English language in a consistent manner. In any event, would you care to share which workouts you consider to be the right ones for a Top 10 Masters finish at NYC? That's impressive.
Fair enough, you are on it, fair enough. That is my aim: to learn, discern, and move on, looking for a better result next time out.
Happy running to you.
What he said. In fact, if you want to email me, I will send you my training plan for my next marathon. It is an 80 mpw plan, but it will give you a good idea about what Daniels plan looks like. I would also be happy to discuss my thought process on the non-quality days (like why I have so many 10-11 mile days and 6 mile days instead of a bunch of 8 mile days). ymca_runner@hotmail.com
outsiderunner wrote:
I appreciate your ocmments, Er, but all I can say is that it all comes down to judgment. Our lives are inextricably linked to our deciisons, no matter how small they may appear at the time the decision is being made. I have mentioned that I found out about the refrigerator when it was already too late not to complicate my plans significantly.
Believe me, I ask myself the same question in regard to the wrong turn, and that is why I am rather sensitve about the issue, and that is why I was so upset when the race was over. Indeed, it was the only thing that could,mess me up at that point, and yet it happened. My wife sums it up by saying, "These things just happen to you sometimes." She is right. They happen to me, and to others, too.
As you have observed, I love being precise with things and I tend to be an intense person. I enjoy the precision in life. It is part of my religious belief and part of my overall perspective and approach to life. My wife also suggested that the wrong turn and race, overall, were meant to teach me something about the virtue of perseverance. She is right again, and I think this is the best point to be made about the race. If one could run for about 27 miles, and be under duress for the last five or so, then there is a lot one could learn about oneself along the way. This is why I have said I am glad I ran the race, even though I did not PR or get a sub-3.
I am disappointed by what happened, and would rather just "let it be." I have explained things exactly as I recall them, and do not want to keep gping over the matter. I want to take something positive from the experience. Thus, I do not mind discussing training, etc., but I am getting "fatigued" by the feeling of being "on trail" and by the recollection of the feeling I had when I knew I made a wrong turn and that it would cost me a shot at a PR.
All the best to everyone here...
Your use of the phrase "on trail" is obvious evidence of your subconscious conflict about getting lost during your marathon race, which is leaking into your post at this forum.
There is also the 38 pages (so far) of evidence of your subconscious leaking on this thread.
The subconscious conflict is still there.
Do you feel like talking about it?
How do you feel about the subconscious conflict?
Okay, Smoove, what do you think my easy pace should be? I am asking you, the top 10 NYC masters guy, and am not looking for some type of standard JD response (or that of some other coach). There should be enough info here about me for you to make an informed response.
Thanks in advance.
Molkinsloth wrote:
His biggest problem is that he can't accept the one common thread in all of his "misfortunes" ~ himself. He is constantly blaming everything and everyone, except himself. Every race time has an asterisk beside it b/c of some circumstance. I was sitting in the gym at the finish of the NCR race, and he comes in and just starts unloading on the race directors. Pretty poor sportsmanship, IMO. The person responsible for the wrong turn was him. Not the cop, not anything else. As was pointed out, I've never run a race where a cop directing traffic was also a course marshal. He would do well to take a step back from all of this, and take a look in the mirror.
Based on the responses in this thread, it seems like OP puts a ton of pressure on himself. Add a little oxygen debt and things go bad.
OP, you gotta relax.
I was thinkng the same thing...Very funny! :-)