Disappointed at NYC Marathon--Should I go back-to-back?

Molkinsloth wrote:

Wrong. I've run this race 4 times. You are not remembering correctly. The aid station is in this parking lot:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.5788765,-76.6147278,224m/data=

Wrong. Just as I have suggested, the aid station and parking lot are positioned ahead of the Monkton Road intersection. I turned at the intersection.

Now it seems the two of you are splitting hairs--was the aid station at the intersection or was it a few dozen yards north, in the parking lot right where you emerge from the trail? Fine--that's not that important. I will grant you, outsiderunner, that if it's closer to the trail head then maybe it makes more sense that they didn't see you veer off course.

Here's what I'm struggling with. Among the characteristics of your posts and your general attitude towards your running is a precision rare even for the most dedicated runners. Not unique, but rare. You record wind direction and speed in your training logs. You know your cadence particular to specific running shoes. And yet you don't know a marathon course well enough--one characterized by, in essence, ONE TURN you need to get right--to save you from a misfortune such as this. How is this possible? I would have thought you much more the type to study the map incessantly and to know at exactly which mile and road you turn which way or not. This surprises me.

That said, you've demonstrated before similar oversights. Your dedication to nutrition is admirable, yet you failed to confirm the availability of a room fridge in your hotel in NYC. For most people, a minor inconvenience. To you, this is a shortcoming significant enough that you brought it up repeatedly. It's surprising you overlooked it at the confirmation stage of your hotel booking.

I don't think you're lying about anything in this thread. I do think you're overthinking things frequently and, at times, not paying enough attention to what really matters. And I'm still wondering whether subconsciously you sabotaged yourself when things were going awry.

This is a nice and thoughtful response. We ARE splitting hairs at this point. The aid station is not right at the road. Maybe 20 yards before the road, but within shouting/sight distance. If there was any sort of question in his mind, it would have saved him a lot of time to slow down and ask.

I appreciate your ocmments, Er, but all I can say is that it all comes down to judgment. Our lives are inextricably linked to our deciisons, no matter how small they may appear at the time the decision is being made. I have mentioned that I found out about the refrigerator when it was already too late not to complicate my plans significantly.

Believe me, I ask myself the same question in regard to the wrong turn, and that is why I am rather sensitve about the issue, and that is why I was so upset when the race was over. Indeed, it was the only thing that could,mess me up at that point, and yet it happened. My wife sums it up by saying, "These things just happen to you sometimes." She is right. They happen to me, and to others, too.

As you have observed, I love being precise with things and I tend to be an intense person. I enjoy the precision in life. It is part of my religious belief and part of my overall perspective and approach to life. My wife also suggested that the wrong turn and race, overall, were meant to teach me something about the virtue of perseverance. She is right again, and I think this is the best point to be made about the race. If one could run for about 27 miles, and be under duress for the last five or so, then there is a lot one could learn about oneself along the way. This is why I have said I am glad I ran the race, even though I did not PR or get a sub-3.

I am disappointed by what happened, and would rather just "let it be." I have explained things exactly as I recall them, and do not want to keep gping over the matter. I want to take something positive from the experience. Thus, I do not mind discussing training, etc., but I am getting "fatigued" by the feeling of being "on trail" and by the recollection of the feeling I had when I knew I made a wrong turn and that it would cost me a shot at a PR.

All the best to everyone here...

I meant being "on trial" Sorry for the typo.

You're right. God was testing your faith. Just like Job.

In many ways, life is a test...or, at least, there are many tests in life.

All the best to you and a happy holiday season to all here.

What did your wife say your learned from screaming at the RD after the race?

I was quite upset, but did not scream at the race director. I apologized to her for being so agitated. She said that she understood why I was upset, and apologized for what happened.

Genuine curiosity, not a joke...what are your religious beliefs that require precision?

Er... wrote:

I don't think you're lying about anything in this thread. I do think you're overthinking things frequently and, at times, not paying enough attention to what really matters. And I'm still wondering whether subconsciously you sabotaged yourself when things were going awry.

Bingo. And I think part of the reason that I and other find this thread so fascinating is that the points that Outsiderunner posts here are all things that have gone through our heads at one time or another. You're really no different from the rest of us, and that's why we're pulling for you. But we've all learned hard lessons about why the sort of training and racing choices that Outsiderunner espouses don't work. And why his rationalizations in the end don't work.

Sometimes we've learned those lessons through painful experience, sometimes we've learned them through education and research. The second way is easier, quicker, and more efficient. We're trying to save Outsiderunner the long and tortuous path of learning via experience, but it seems that he is determined to follow that road.

Outsiderunner - in the beginning of this thread, you mentioned that you had a coach (but that many of your choices were without your coach's knowledge or approval). I would suggest that you either have a coach or you don't. If you have a coach, then you should be doing what he or she says, rather than making stuff up on your own or following internet advice. If you're not willing to follow your coach's plan more or less to the letter, then you need to end that relationship - it's not fair to either of you.

I'll also note that if you insist on learning by experience, then you need to be trying different things, including training plans that may not make sense to you but were written by people with much more experience. You've gotten good suggestions for Daniels and for Hudson; personally I'd go with Pfitzinger if I had to do a canned plan, but the others are good also. The key point here is that you need to be stepping out of your own comfort zone, which may mean that you have to experiment with "training like a wimp" for a while.

Or maybe you don't, and you doggedly stick to what you insist works for you. If so, that's your choice - there's no moral obligation to run to the best of your ability. But if you do choose that route, then own it and the consequences, which include performances that don't match your ambitions.

outsiderunner wrote:

I was quite upset, but did not scream at the race director. I apologized to her for being so agitated. She said that she understood why I was upset, and apologized for what happened.

What did your wife say about it?

Good, thoughtful comments here, darkwave, and I thank you for them. I thank you for "pulling for me," too.

I ordered the Hudson book this morning, but I see your point about Pfitz. I have read some of what he has written, and have looked at his 18/70 plan.

Thanks again, and all the best to you...

My wife did not offer any comment on my interaction with the race director. My wife knows me well, and even said that she knew something were amiss as she waited for me at the line and watched the clock.

She feels bad for what happened to me, and is still somewhat puzzled by it, but she believes it all has something to do with perseverance, and I agree with her. Everything happens for a reason, even if the reason is unclear or does not "add up" to us.

Outsiderunner, you should join Strava and the LRC Strava group. I'm sure you would get a lot of kudo's.

https://www.strava.com/clubs/letsrunDOTcom

By the way, if you want a flexible plan, Pfitzinger isn't the right book for you. Daniels 2Q plan is flexible.

Thanks...and the specific recommendation for 2Q is appreciated. Have you (or a friend perhaps) used it?

Ha ha...I had the same thought. All this back and forth must be creating a ton of pressure. It's got be messing with his head.

Outsiderunner, yesterday I read through HRE's reposting of John "Hadd" Walsh's insights from a few years back. I found it very enlightening, and would encourage you to read through it while you're awaiting the books you've ordered.

I think he does a good job of explaining why slower training is better than faster, for aerobic development.

This is the thread:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=7928783

After looking at my own recent marathon training cycle, I see that I overemphasized the amount of running at/below marathon pace ... and am excited to develop untapped potential in 2017!

Best to you!

Good to hear from you, Allen1959, and thanks for the information.

All the best to you!