Disappointed at NYC Marathon--Should I go back-to-back?

bookz wrote:

OP, you can download the JD and Hansons books here for free. Of course, buy them if you will use them:

http://libgen.io/book/index.php?md5=AD488FEEFFB078F7EE1EE9F979A2ED69http://libgen.io/book/index.php?md5=10BD73EDA12B4A9E941D9CEFA4F43913

not cool dude

calculator wrote:

7:30 Sounds right wrote:

Hey that was me! I was called fat at 153 lbs and I dropped 20 lbs to get to 133 lbs and ~ 10% BF on race day. "dieted" or rather watched my calories for over 5 months.

Thanks for your interesting input, 7:30.

Just for reference, what is your height and max HR?

I'm 5'7, 34 yo male, max HR 188-189 or so.

Most of my running life has been around 150 lbs. Working my way down to 133 lbs made a huge difference for the marathon.

I found out that doing most of my running around HR 120-130 is very productive and you are right this most certainly isn't 7:30 pace but rather 8:00-9:00 or even slower some days (summer etc).

JD predicted HR 162-164 for the marathon. I would need to run much more miles to reach that potential.

On race day I averaged HR 157 for 6:44 average. Key was to avoid spikes into the 160s early on.

Hope this helps! I found that JD has realistic times if you put in the training. For example a ~ 1:24 half can translate into a sub 3. But the day you get to the latter you could likely do better than 1:24 in the half, so I read his tables not as equivalency but good goals to progress to longer distances if these pose a problem.

I thank you for all of the posts, 7:30 sounds right, and I am sorry if my tone offended you. You make good points, and you are absolutely right about me running 7:00 pace--I can do it virtually every time out. That is why I referred to myself (early on in this thread) as a "marathon-pace machine." Perhaps I am just a "training guy" and not a "race guy." I have done well in other races, though. Even so, I always feel more "at home" with running when I am out there, by myself, running my rollers. This is where I really "found" running...running long or long-ish runs by myself, along the rollers, getting faster as the miles go by, and finishing sub-LT or perhaps way sub-LT, with a nice runner's high to follow.

Your story is great, but I must say that I am baffled by anyone who can run well in a goal race while having only done some relatively small snippets of that given race pace in training. I have heard of this, and I understand that some runners do this, but to me it is baffling, utterly baffling, whether we are talking about a 5k or a marathon. How could a person's body handle that pace all the way through 26.2 with only 10 miles of it during a long training run? Where is the experience at pace? Where is the adaptation?

Perhaps I should have phrased the issue in this direct manner earlier in this thread.

outsiderunner wrote:

but I must say that I am baffled by anyone who can run well in a goal race while having only done some relatively small snippets of that given race pace in training. I have heard of this, and I understand that some runners do this, but to me it is baffling, utterly baffling, whether we are talking about a 5k or a marathon. How could a person's body handle that pace all the way through 26.2 with only 10 miles of it during a long training run? Where is the experience at pace? Where is the adaptation?

You really need to educate yourself on the physiology of training. As others have said in here, get yourself a copy of Daniels, Hanson and/or Pfitz and read it. It will greatly benefit you.

Thanks...perhaps this could be an early Christmas present to myself?

Just got back from a little six-miler, after resting yesterday, trying to get rid of this cold. My breathing was much improved over Tuesday, not quite perfect, but clearly improved. Overall, I felt great in this run and was so happy to be out on my rollers. I went 6.33 miles, at an overall 7:03 pace. My splits were...

7:29, 7:11, 7:21, 7:00, 7:00, 6:31

That last mile felt like an up-tempo jog.

All the best to everyone, and have a great Thanksgiving. We all have much for which to give thanks--we are runners. I was pondering this on my run today. What a nice run it was.

Still thinking about NCR marathon. How are you, Molkinsloth?

ridiculous.

outsiderunner wrote:

Just got back from a little six-miler, after resting yesterday, trying to get rid of this cold. My breathing was much improved over Tuesday, not quite perfect, but clearly improved. Overall, I felt great in this run and was so happy to be out on my rollers. I went 6.33 miles, at an overall 7:03 pace. My splits were...

7:29, 7:11, 7:21, 7:00, 7:00, 6:31

Translation: "I haven't listened to any of this and am still banging out MP runs"

still wrote:

outsiderunner wrote:

Just got back from a little six-miler, after resting yesterday, trying to get rid of this cold. My breathing was much improved over Tuesday, not quite perfect, but clearly improved. Overall, I felt great in this run and was so happy to be out on my rollers. I went 6.33 miles, at an overall 7:03 pace. My splits were...

7:29, 7:11, 7:21, 7:00, 7:00, 6:31

Translation: "I haven't listened to any of this and am still banging out MP runs"

Looks like it. I'm done posting in this thread. Looked up Daniels tables and 7:00 pace for a 2:55 marathoner is circa 150 HR or more. That's not easy.

OP should buy a HR monitor and learn to run at or below 125-130 to define easy. And if 7:00 truly is that easy maybe move up to longer distances and kick some serious ass!!!

To each his own. Nobody is forcing you to post here.

I have run twice this week. Twice. That run this morning did not feel hard at all.

outsiderunner wrote:

What do you think?

Please help...

This thread started with this. It was your original post.

It's pretty clear that's not really what you're interested in.

outsiderunner wrote:

To each his own. Nobody is forcing you to post here.

I have run twice this week. Twice. That run this morning did not feel hard at all.

Didn't mean to offend you and I shouldn't have said I'm done. We just all have different approaches, I prefer to run a little and slow everyday, and speed up only in key workouts.

Training is very individual so all you need is find what will help you, sometimes

it's just a little set of tweaks or taper/recovery/nutrition and the magic of race day.

Wishing you the very best and I look forward to more positive posts. You work hard, and will reap the benefits. Happy thanksgiving!

No problem, 7:30 Sounds right. Glad you are still posting, and Happy Thanksgiving to you.

I have asked for help and have received a lot of interesting feedback. It will take time to digest it.

I am leaning toward running the NCR. Molkinsloth, where are you? Would like to hear from you prior to the race. If I go, how will I identify you?

outsiderunner wrote:

No problem, 7:30 Sounds right. Glad you are still posting, and Happy Thanksgiving to you.

I have asked for help and have received a lot of interesting feedback. It will take time to digest it.

I am leaning toward running the NCR. Molkinsloth, where are you? Would like to hear from you prior to the race. If I go, how will I identify you?

I'll be at NCR too. Shooting for 2:56.

7:30 Sounds right wrote:

outsiderunner wrote:

To each his own. Nobody is forcing you to post here.

I have run twice this week. Twice. That run this morning did not feel hard at all.

Didn't mean to offend you and I shouldn't have said I'm done. We just all have different approaches, I prefer to run a little and slow everyday, and speed up only in key workouts.

Training is very individual so all you need is find what will help you, sometimes

it's just a little set of tweaks or taper/recovery/nutrition and the magic of race day.

Wishing you the very best and I look forward to more positive posts. You work hard, and will reap the benefits. Happy thanksgiving!

Now I'm not sure who's trolling, 7:30 or outsiderunner

JamisonRunner wrote:

outsiderunner wrote:

No problem, 7:30 Sounds right. Glad you are still posting, and Happy Thanksgiving to you.

I have asked for help and have received a lot of interesting feedback. It will take time to digest it.

I am leaning toward running the NCR. Molkinsloth, where are you? Would like to hear from you prior to the race. If I go, how will I identify you?

I'll be at NCR too. Shooting for 2:56.

Best of success to you. I am fairly certain I will be there. I am 5'6" and am a marathon weight of 125 (well, maybe 126-127 after today's meal) with dark hair. Hope to see you.

Ran a Turkey Trot 5K in 18:20 today, so I'm ready to roll for Saturday haha. Now I'll just sit back and wait for the people on here to tell me how stupid that was. I kept my HR between 165-170, so calm down everyone.

Molkinsloth wrote:

Ran a Turkey Trot 5K in 18:20 today, so I'm ready to roll for Saturday haha. Now I'll just sit back and wait for the people on here to tell me how stupid that was. I kept my HR between 165-170, so calm down everyone.

Doesn't sound like a big deal and you should be in great shape for the marathon! Before my last one I ran 3 x 1 mile in low 6:00s 10 days out and 3 x 800 at 5:53-6:00 4 days out.

Ran 6:45 for 26.2.

So your 3.1 mile at 5:53 with 0 rest isn't outrageous! If that HR range was "controlled", it gave you a nice boost / turnover.

What's your goal for the race? Best of luck to you.

outsiderunner wrote:

I thank you for all of the posts, 7:30 sounds right, and I am sorry if my tone offended you. You make good points, and you are absolutely right about me running 7:00 pace--I can do it virtually every time out. That is why I referred to myself (early on in this thread) as a "marathon-pace machine." Perhaps I am just a "training guy" and not a "race guy."

No, you can hit 7:00 every run out and still not beat "7:30 sounds right" in a race because you only run every other day. He'd be hitting 7's like he did during his taper if his cumulative work was so low too. You're never going to beat him with you're current plan. If that's too boring for you then that's fine, but don't be upset when you bonk at races.

Molkinsloth wrote:

Ran a Turkey Trot 5K in 18:20 today, so I'm ready to roll for Saturday haha. Now I'll just sit back and wait for the people on here to tell me how stupid that was. I kept my HR between 165-170, so calm down everyone.

Sounds like you are in great shape, Molk. Nice work with the turkey trot. I am surprised you have not received a litany of derogatory remarks for the 5k prior to the marathon.

With regard to David' s remarks about hitting 7:00 while running only every other day, I note that only now, in recovering from a marathon, am I running every other day. When I said I could run 7:00 virtually every time out, I meant it in terms of a normal schedule, 5-7 days per week, depending upon the phase or cycle.