Disappointed at NYC Marathon--Should I go back-to-back?

Well, there is a guy here, a "fat" guy, that has said that he has recently put up a whopping 20-minute PR and sub-3 performance off of mostly 9:00 and 10:00 miles, and, as he emphatically said, almost nothing under 8:00. Sounds like a vacation. A vacation in a world that does not exist. Where do I sign up?

So, how is 2:55 all that wrong?

outsiderunner wrote:

Not only is this rude and uncalled-for, it is stupid. There are some offensive remarks in this thread, but this one takes the cake. Even the part of "thinking too much" is absurd. So, you just put in months and months of training and preparation, race one of the most important races in the world, and then forget about it, right?

Why did you post to LR? Simple question. Answer it honestly.

What do sore abs have to do with anything? You keep talking about that like it's some remarkable issue. Running caused sore abs?

There are two fallacies here that you need to rethink, if you're ever going to run to your potential.

1) The belief that running is an algebraic formula, where you plug in fitness, weather, course and a finish time is the result. And if you don't hit that finish time, then something weird happened - a variable that must be changed.

If it worked that way, then we could all just show up on race morning, compare our stats, and go home. But it doesn't. The real world is messy. Sometimes you run slower because you executed poorly, sometimes you run slower because you woke up on the wrong side of the bed. And sometimes you just run slower for no reason at all.

That last possibility is REALLY hard for type A personalities like most of us to accept. But one has to accept that possibility in order to run one's best, otherwise one ends up like you (and others), so lost in the analytics that they can't just go out there and execute.

2) Many people to tend to think of training as a bank - the more you put in, the more you can withdraw later. (the expression "the hay is in the barn" doesn't help) So they dump and dump and dump workouts in the bank, and are then shocked when they can't withdraw that fitness on race day.

A bank is the wrong metaphor. Training effectively is much more like baking a cake. To train effectively, you have to strike the right balance between stress and recovery. You have to include ALL the proper elements of training (including rest) in the best balance. By running all of those excessive marathon pace runs, you're the baker who dumped way too much flour in the cake batter. More flour (or sugar, or eggs) doesn't necessarily make for a better cake.

outsiderunner wrote:

I do not pound every run.

Good. I didn't you say did. But now that you mention it, in your first run only four days after a marathon where you hit the wall hard, you ran six miles with the last mile well under marathon pace. In your second run back you nearly averaged marathon pace for seven miles and again closed well under it. That's what I call pounding every run.

outsiderunner wrote:

How would you explain last year? I used virtually the same approach, and ran 3:02 at Richmond, even with sore lower abs. I guess I just got lucky.

You ran faster on a faster course; why is this surprising? NYC is not a fast course and it has nothing to do with your hotel mini-fridge.

outsiderunner wrote:

Well, there is a guy here, a "fat" guy, that has said that he has recently put up a whopping 20-minute PR and sub-3 performance off of mostly 9:00 and 10:00 miles, and, as he emphatically said, almost nothing under 8:00. Sounds like a vacation. A vacation in a world that does not exist. Where do I sign up?

So, how is 2:55 all that wrong?

Please provide your most recent half marathon race time. Then we will decide if you are a "2:55 guy."

He said that he SHOULD BE a 2:55 guy, not that he IS. And I think he could easily be a 2:50 guy within a couple of marathons if he will start listening and training smarter. I know 3:02 is a hobbyjog by LetsRun standards but for mere mortals that's a darn good first marathon. And a 3:04 at NYC in bad conditions on moderate mileage with some crazy long M runs and a jacked up taper is nothing to sneeze at either. He's clearly got some talent.

angryjohnny wrote:

He said that he SHOULD BE a 2:55 guy, not that he IS. And I think he could easily be a 2:50 guy within a couple of marathons if he will start listening and training smarter. I know 3:02 is a hobbyjog by LetsRun standards but for mere mortals that's a darn good first marathon. And a 3:04 at NYC in bad conditions on moderate mileage with some crazy long M runs and a jacked up taper is nothing to sneeze at either. He's clearly got some talent.

Thanks, angryjohnny. i have been thinking along these lines, and that is why I need to have all of my facts straight before I go into another cycle. Believe me, I do not want another disappointment. I did a lot of wok, and I expected results. My body felt good, too. And, yes, abs that hurt can be a hinderance when running 26.2. This comment is not directed toward you, angryjohnny, but toward the person who said he/she did not undertsand the ab issue.

I appreciate your constructive input, angryjohhny. So, do you recommend me doing lots of 9:00 and 10:00 miles, as suggested by the other poster? What is your opinion? To me, 9:00 is about the same as walking. Do you suggest anything else? I am listening...

This is very well stated, dark wave--thank you. I am listening to you, too. You and angryjohnny should teach a seminar.

I asked him a direct question about training, and I will ask you a direct question about my next step. Lots of possibiliites here, including what I earned with my 3:04 at NYC. We have the NYC Half (March 19), which is possibly doable for me in winter training, we have Shamrock 2017, and Potomac River Run Part Deux (spring version), as the RD (Jay) recently offered me a transfer for only $10. I sent him an e-mail, telling him I got sick. That race is scheduled for May 7 (too hot for a marathon?). Also, Chicago sent me an e-mail this morning, and I think that races on Oct. 8...flat course, but usually iffy in terms of weather (hot). There is a lot of travel there, and so I doubt I would go for Chicago. To be fair and thorough, I thought I should mention it. And then there is vengeance on NYCM, as I have a guaranteed qualifier for that. If I ever did that again, I would opt for the ferry for sure. That 90-minute bus ride was torture on my bladder.

Anything else? You tell me...

outsiderunner wrote:

Well, there is a guy here, a "fat" guy, that has said that he has recently put up a whopping 20-minute PR and sub-3 performance off of mostly 9:00 and 10:00 miles, and, as he emphatically said, almost nothing under 8:00. Sounds like a vacation. A vacation in a world that does not exist. Where do I sign up?

So, how is 2:55 all that wrong?

I think you've got 2:55 fitness right now. NCR should give you the chance to hit even splits the whole way. Go for it and good luck this weekend!

Daniels Running Formula, which you should read, will probably put your easy pace around 7:30. You should always go on feel, but the bulk of your easy miles will end up being around that pace. I tend to start most runs a minute slower than E and then ease into it after a couple miles. Its not unusual for what feels easy to be significantly slower during a cool down or the days after a hard workout. On those occasions you should defintely listen to your body and slow down to whatever feels easy. With that said, you will rarely if ever need to slow all the way down to 9:00 or 10:00 pace. It's also okay to go a little faster if you feel good, but you should be careful not to go so fast on easy days that you compromise the quality workouts. Did I mention that you should read Daniels?

I'm actually entered in NYC half for next March, and also have run Chicago, and Shamrock half and full I've also spent a lot of time on that Potomac River Run course.

a) if money is no option (which is highly unlikely), and a spring marathon is off the table, then I'd do either NYC or Shamrock Half in the spring. In the fall I'd register for three races: Chicago, Mohawk-Hudson in Albany, NY, and CIM. Chicago and Mohawk-Hudson are on the same day in October; CIM is in early December.

Plan on your sub-3 attempt at Chicago. Watch the weather as race-day approaches; if it looks too warm, then reroute to Mohawk-Hudson.

CIM is your second back-up, if you either get injured during the Chicago training cycle, or if Chicago doesn't go the way you want. There should be 8-9 weeks between the two next year -theoretically enough to recover from Chicago and do a small bit of training before CIM.

(I'm trying the Chicago-CIM double myself this year - I'll try to remember to check in and let you know how it went).

b) as for individual races:

-NYC half. I've yet to run it, but everyone I know who did it last year ran PRs. You can make up a lot of time on that west side stretch. And purportedly much easier logistics than the NYC full. If you want revenge on NY, I recommend this.

-Shamrock half. Great race - my half PR is from there. You'll usually get pretty good weather, though it can sometimes be cool or warm. It will almost certainly be windy, but the wind will be from the northwest, meaning it will be a headwind for the first half (when you have shelter via other runners and some trees), before you ride the tailwind home. People regularly PR there in windy years.

-Shamrock full. Also a great race. It can be very windy, but even in those years many people PR. It's very well managed, and will be nothing like your NYC experience. Especially if you stay at a hotel near the start/finish. It is important to note that a) the course is boring and b) you may be alone at times if you're going for sub-3. I ran 3:08 there, and I was alone for periods of time in the second half. However, you get to chase down the walking half-marathoners in the last 6 miles of the marathon, which actually helps a lot (there's not enough of them to really be an obstacle).

For either of the Shamrocks, the hotel prices on the boardwalk are jacked up for race weekend. Some to NYC-esque prices.

-Chicago. If you have to put all your eggs in one basket, choose this one. It will be the opposite of your NYC marathon experience. Stay in the loop and walk to the start. The race is very well managed and the course is extremely fast, with plenty of people to drag you along at 6:50 pace. The course is also mentally easy - there's enough turns to keep your mind interested, and nearly the entire course is packed with crowds cheering. The only issue here is that it can be warm (which is why you pick back-ups).

-Potomac River. I would NOT choose this race for a sub-3 attempt. It is inexpensive and logistically easy, but trust me, twice out and back on that course has to be mentally exhausting. Especially if you're running by yourself, as you almost certainly will. Plus the crushed stone surface is a bit slower than pavement, IMHO. Not by much, but a few seconds a mile. Which might be the difference between 2:59 and 3:00. Potomac River is a great option for people wanting to cross another state off a list, or to knock off a BQ. Or to run a marathon for the heck of it while staying local. It's not a good marathon for a sub-3 attempt when you're on the cusp.

Other races you should consider: Mohawk-Hudson in upstate NY, CIM in California in December, Grandma's in Minnesota in June. All will involve a fair bit of travel for you. But they are all very good courses. And unlike Chicago and Shamrock, they have rolling hills. Since you train in a hilly area, you may find that a rolling downhill course like CIM suits you much better than a pancake flat course - you're used to hills, but may not be used to 26 miles of using the exact same muscles.

c) final thought - I suggest going on the USATF website and pulling up a list of Olympic Trials Qualifiers and where they qualified. Especially on the women's side. That may give you an idea of the best races to target. I guarantee that you will see CIM, Grandma's, and Chicago on that list. And I would expect to also see Mohawk-Hudson and Shamrock there.

I echo the advice re targeting Chicago. It is flat as a pancake and logistically a piece of cake compared to NYC. I ran it last year and plan to run it again next year. I had never considered having backup options but that's a good call as Chicago can be warm.

outsiderunner wrote:

Well, there is a guy here, a "fat" guy, that has said that he has recently put up a whopping 20-minute PR and sub-3 performance off of mostly 9:00 and 10:00 miles, and, as he emphatically said, almost nothing under 8:00. Sounds like a vacation. A vacation in a world that does not exist. Where do I sign up?

So, how is 2:55 all that wrong?

Hey that was me! I was called fat at 153 lbs and I dropped 20 lbs to get to 133 lbs and ~ 10% BF on race day. "dieted" or rather watched my calories for over 5 months.

I ran slow because I am naturally slow, and the summer is hot. I took 2-3 months to build from < 50 mpw to 60-65 mpw regularly.

Did not take a day off in over 6 months. Even with heavy (work) travel. When needed, yes I ran 10:00 min/mi. My slowest was a 10.5 mi run in 1:45:00.

But I got to my goal of having a strong base, and then, was ready to start the Jack Daniels "2Q" plan which puts you at roughly peak mileage on week 1.

Only then (around September) did I start some tempo interval sessions (e.g. 2 x 2M, or 3 x 10;) at 6:15 pace, and long runs with M-pace (6:45 to 6:52) in, usually the last 5-10M.

Longest run was 20 miles, 10 E (7:55) + 10 M (6:50) or so. As you can see I did not run anything close to 22 miles at 6:53!!!

But as I have read here often, to run a good marathon you need:

- miles or time on your feet, and whatever pace. I often did 6.5 miles in 1:00:00 just to get to the hour mark, which is 9:15 pace, on recovery days (Monday/Thu) and a smidge faster on Tue/Fri/Sat

- some time below lactate threshold (T pace)

- a good amount of running at M pace, as relaxed as possible, during long runs.

So outside of 1 or 2 workouts a week, I never saw sub 8:00 on my watch. As a matter of fact, my easy pace was 8:40 (on a good day) to 9:45 (on a crappy one) for the entire 5 months training block, and ONLY AT THE END of the taper 8:00 min/mi felt very easy, and I started seeing 7:3x-7:5x on my watch when not paying attention.

On race day I averaged 6:44 with the same HR average as I had on the last 10 miles of the 20-miler (10E+10M).

I think the training up to the race was not necessarily to get FITTER, but to get as far as possible from the start line fresh (endurance, energy levels) to race the last 6.2.

I had cramped badly on my first 3 marathons.

Think most of us would benefit from running really easy on easy day. Of course perhaps this is hindsight, but I think there is something to the long duration, low intensity "fat burning" switch (i.e. not relying on glycogen) at low HR but substantial time on feet.

This was nothing but a vacation...I ran in every time zone, time of day, or condition. It was all about building consistency. Before starting all of this, I had run a second under 1:24 for the half, and I think you are ballpark already, so the goal is simply to "convert" that speed.

Again best of luck!

outsiderunner wrote:

I appreciate your constructive input, angryjohhny. So, do you recommend me doing lots of 9:00 and 10:00 miles, as suggested by the other poster? What is your opinion? To me, 9:00 is about the same as walking. Do you suggest anything else? I am listening...

I also apologize if my post was misconstrued in a way. If 9:00+ is like walking to you, then you do not, and I do not SUGGEST you do that.

Perhaps run with a heart rate monitor and make sure whatever you doing is truly easy. Recovery for me was HR 115-125, easy was HR 130-135 and I rarely ran above that. M pace workouts was HR 153-163 or so and T pace around HR 169.

Average pace for the months of Jul-Sep were 8:40-9:00.

I picked "7:30 Sounds right" a while ago when debating long run pace for 3:00 hour target marathoners, because I think your long easy runs should at least simulate the mechanics of the race, but I see it more as by product of starting easy (> 8) and finishing with some MP (< 7) rather than steady.

You are one of these guys that can go out and run close to 7:00 it seems almost every day, I admire that as I am not like that at all! Especially in the first 3 miles of any given run, I crawl!

One more idea (sorry for the third post).

Do most of your running on empty (e.g. I did my long run 12-14 hours after dinner, without breakfast) and teach your body to rely on fat.

Before race day however (particularly last 3 weeks), I practiced fueling up (breakfast and on-run regular intake of gels) to make sure I tolerate.

The difference is phenomenal and feels like taking a legal performance enhancer. I'd rather run slow on empty during training, and fast with regular fuel on race day than any other combination.

I guess this was obvious, and some other posters might be doing the same?

outsiderunner wrote:

Well, there is a guy here, a "fat" guy, that has said that he has recently put up a whopping 20-minute PR and sub-3 performance off of mostly 9:00 and 10:00 miles, and, as he emphatically said, almost nothing under 8:00. Sounds like a vacation. A vacation in a world that does not exist. Where do I sign up?

So, how is 2:55 all that wrong?

Where do you sign up?

Right here:

You need to determine your Maffetone Aerobic Funâ„¢ (MAF) pace.

Listening to Phil's CDs will also help to lower your elevated cortisol levels from possible overtraining (which can then inhibit your immune system and increase your susceptibility to infections).

Of course, infections have not been a problem for you recently.

The chiropractor Phil Maffetone MAF method is the perfect solution to all world problems.

darkwave wrote:

I'm actually entered in NYC half for next March, and also have run Chicago, and Shamrock half and full I've also spent a lot of time on that Potomac River Run course.

Oh geez.... darkwave got pulled back in... and in a big way...