I have no idea. It's mind-blowing.
I have no idea. It's mind-blowing.
I agree: I have to attribute missing my goal to something. I could not agree more that I had sub-3:00 fitness on Oct. 1 and on race day. I knew how my body felt, and I know that my fitness had never been better. Lesser fitness got me a 3:02 at Richmond, even with sore abs.
Good questions in regard to what hurt me most on race day. I would say it was probably a combination of things, but I still cannot understand how I did not at least PR. I shy away from attributing it to a bad or "unfortunate day." That just seems vague and imprecise, especially since I felt so good for the first 20 miles.
In terms of a choke, I would add that I know what I did in those last five miles or so. It was very unpleasant, and I pushed through it as well as I could.
The whole time since the race, I have been thinking about what I should change for my next marathon. This is a huge subject, and I will get back to you on it. Most of all, I seek redemption.
You didn't choke. You sabotaged yourself with those long runs of 23, 22, 20, and 18 miles run too fast for your fitness and training level. That's what did you in. Sure, the standing around before the race took something out of you. And in the back of your mind, not having a fridge in your hotel room maybe contributed to a less than ideal performance. But those four runs glaringly, overwhelmingly demonstrate that you did not train wisely in the lead in to the marathon.
Maybe on a different course with less taxing pre-race logistics you could have run sub-3 but until you stop running too many miles in a row at MP in your training you're not going to get the best racing out of your body that you could. You can tell us again that you felt fresh afterwards and those runs didn't take anything out of you but find me a training program or an elite or sub-elite or an elite-masters or sub-elite-masters log that recommends that sort of training.
Molkinsloth wrote:
Dude, please run NCR. You are fascinating, and I would love to meet you in person. BTW, you don't need to decide by this evening b/c you can still register on Saturday (race) morning.
I would like to meet you, too. I had been thinking that there were no race-day registration. Thanks for pointing out that there is.
I am fascinated by running, and love how it is so simple, yet so difficult and challenging. For me, it has a transcendent quality: the adrenaline, the rush, the pain, the suffering, the joy, the mystery, all united in a sweaty manipulation of muscles, and centered by steady, repetitive beats, those of the feet and the heart, as we hear only our breathing and perhaps the sounds of our surroundings.
I will try to be there for NCR, and will try to decide today.
All the best to you...
Thanks for your input, Er. I am not trying to be argumentative or to mock you, but I need to ask: how did I pull off those four runs if they were beyond my level of fitness? Likewise, why did I experience no problems with those four runs, no cramps, and no issues the next day? I ask this because we are not talking about just one run--there were four occasions in which I could have cramped or crashed, yet I did nothing of the sort.
Again, I do not intend to mock or badger you here.
Read a book about running and training theory and it will be less "mysterious." Jack Daniels and Pete Pfitzinger are good places to start. You clearly are missing several points. The fact that a 20 mile run at 8 minute miles can benefit a 7min/mile marathoner is really basic stuff. The fact that you can do harm to your body without feeling immediate pain is basic stuff. The fact that sometimes you should stick to a prescribed pace for a workout because it has a specific physiological purpose is basic stuff.
outsiderunner wrote:
In terms of a choke, I would add that I know what I did in those last five miles or so. It was very unpleasant, and I pushed through it as well as I could.
I had a time goal for a half marathon this fall. It was warmer and more humid than expected, then I went out ~15s/mi faster than goal pace because it felt good. Eight miles in it caught up to me and I slowed to 30-45s slower than goal pace, heart rate elevated higher than it should have, I finished >2 minutes slower than I thought I was capable of and in pain. Sore for days. You know what I call that?
I choked. I had a plan, I ignored it, and I failed to meet my goal. It doesn't mean I wimped out, it just means I didn't execute when in counted. 3 weeks later I tried again, after missing a week of training with a cold, and tried really really hard to not start out too fast. Guess what? I hit my goal time. The fitness was there the first time. I choked. You choked. Accept it, move forward, learn from what everyone here is telling you and from your own experience and move on. Stop being willfully ignorant and disregarding good advice.
Sounds like a steady diet of holding back. I guess I am a neophyte, but I just cannot run like a wuss.
No mocking or badgering here. Just my perspective.
Were you running those long runs to prepare for the next day or to prepare for the NYC Marathon? If you were running them to prepare for the next day then well done--you met your goal. If you were hoping they'd help you achieve your best performance then sorry, they hurt more than they helped. No, you didn't cramp or crash on those runs, but you did in your marathon. Just as training is a cumulative process, breaking down can be as well. The seeds of your NYC breakdown, those 8:00/miles you were so loathe to run, were sown in those long training runs.And when I say they were beyond your level of fitness, what I mean is that the pace you were running those long runs was better suited to someone aiming to run, say, 6:00-6:15/miles at NYC.
outsiderunner wrote:
... how did I pull off those four runs if they were beyond my level of fitness? Likewise, why did I experience no problems with those four runs, no cramps, and no issues the next day? I ask this because we are not talking about just one run--there were four occasions in which I could have cramped or crashed, yet I did nothing of the sort.
Okay, I see your point. What would you do next, Mt. Runmore?
outsiderunner wrote:
I guess I am a neophyte, but I just cannot run like a wuss.
What does running like a wuss mean? Just curious to hear you explain it.
By the way, I love this thread. Keep posting. I see potential akin to Down Goes the Dow or the Mike Rossi thread.
outsiderunner wrote:
Sounds like a steady diet of holding back. I guess I am a neophyte, but I just cannot run like a wuss.
No mocking or badgering here. Just my perspective.
If this is your attitude, I will agree with your earlier statement that you have already run your PR at Richmond, because you'll be out of the sport by 50.
Here's just a little sample of what I'm trying to say, based on Jack Daniel's training philosophy...
"Jack Daniels training premise is that running performance is achieved through separate components: the cardiovascular system, running muscles, the ability to cope with and minimize lactic acid, the maximum oxygen uptake capacity, speed, and efficiency of the runner’s movements. Each system is improved by training at a particular intensity. Each run works at least one of these systems and when you put it all together over the course of a season, each run is a puzzle piece that comes together on race day."
The puzzle is not "hammer each run at the same intensity so as to not be accused of wussery." Educate yourself.
outsiderunner wrote:
Certainly my congestion and runny nose are making sleep difficult, but do you think me not having run in a few days is keeping me up, too?
Perhaps. Or perhaps it's the grief and constant self-analysis. In any event, I'd be pounding some Nyquil at bedtime.
Most of us tend to call it "running smart." To each his own.Have you ever looked at the McMillan website? I mentioned his two types of long runs many, many pages back. I believe for someone with a 3:02 PR aiming to run 2:59 the calculator produces a recommended long run pace of 7:09 to 8:22/mile. You might learn more from reading on his site:https://www.mcmillanrunning.com/Additionally, have you considered running with a heart rate monitor? You might benefit from taking the time to learn your range of exertion and then having your coach set thresholds for different types of workouts.Or, continue running the way you've been doing so and recognize that you're racing much slower than you're capable of because you're too stubborn and prideful to admit that other people know more about training that you do.
outsiderunner wrote:
Sounds like a steady diet of holding back. I guess I am a neophyte, but I just cannot run like a wuss.
outsiderunner wrote:
Okay, I see your point. What would you do next, Mt. Runmore?
I would listen to the other people's advice on here. Probably not try to run another marathon this year, maintain fitness, hit it hard (but smarter) next year. Learn restraint. Learn that you can't bend a marathon to your will, no matter how Type A your personality is.
No big thing here in regard to running like a wuss in training. I guess I mean running without any spirit or enthusiasm, or perhaps any real love that drives one onward. I like to feel my runs, at least somewhat.
Yes, Er, I have been to the McMillan Web site, and I use Daniels, too. I think I probably prefer McMillan. I do a fair amount of reading, and so I am not really a neophyte. What can I say. Slow running is not my thing.
The clock ticks in regard to on-line registration. Hmm...
I continue to drink orange juice and think.
outsiderunner wrote:
No big thing here in regard to running like a wuss in training. I guess I mean running without any spirit or enthusiasm, or perhaps any real love that drives one onward. I like to feel my runs, at least somewhat.
Yes, Er, I have been to the McMillan Web site, and I use Daniels, too. I think I probably prefer McMillan. I do a fair amount of reading, and so I am not really a neophyte. What can I say. Slow running is not my thing.
The clock ticks in regard to on-line registration. Hmm...
I continue to drink orange juice and think.
You "feel your runs" a couple times a week, not every day. I find it hard to believe you've actually studied any of these theories based on some of your opinions. Or, you read it and said "nah...i know better".
No clock is ticking when same-day registration exists. At least no clock between now and the weekend.
he's trolling everyone
entertaining as hell though
Or, I read it and said, "It does not sound like something I want to do." All humans have pride, even you. It is not good to assume pride is the motivating factor in every case.
8/10.