Rant - NYCM puts ~300 hobby joggers at the front of the race

Do they not do the sub-elite corral that starts in a different spot anymore? I know they had one that was with the "green start" in 2014. I think there is also a local sub-elite spot. I guess you have the issue of starting in the lower part of the bridge with those ones, but you probably don't have to worry about getting hit with people peeing off the side if you're fast.

amkelley wrote:

No, I'm just saying that if this is the way the organizers want to run the NYC marathon, serious runners should vote with their feet and run elsewhere.

If all the "serious runners" pull out... they'll still have over 51,000 paying customers. I'm sure they'll cry about the lost ahole elites.

That being said, I'm a fat hobbyjogger and I don't get the appeal of going through the hassle of running with 51,000 people. Wherever I've lived, I can find a spring and a fall marathon where I can sleep in my own bed and have a fun day with a reasonably sized group of fellow runners on a certified marathon course. I've traveled to marathons a few times for various reasons, but New York or Chicago have no appeal for me.

But different strokes for different folks. If the hassle of a big crowd is what you want, more power to you.

Hello Newman wrote:

rafarafa wrote:

Not true. I have never run NY but I ran Berlin and London twice and they treat sub-elites as well as elites. Same corral, great access to the front of the race, warmup area, coffee, water, etc… It may not be easy to put everyone on the front of the race at a Major but don't make a mistake like this. It's not respectful and most of all it's not safe either for faster and slower runners.

I am glad you had a good experience at Berlin and London. The thread is about NYC.

And my choosing not to run any of the "marathon majors" makes them unsafe and disrespectful? I don't understand that point...at all.

I'm talking about a mistake on NYRR's part, not yours obviously! You're free to run or not run whichever race you want.

I used Berlin and London's example in order to make a comparison between majors who get a lot of entries and are able to sort it out well. Don't be daft.

angryjohnny wrote:

other than the Olympic trials, NYC is probably the hardest race in the US to qualify for

Da Fuq you talkin' bout?

Saw this on TV and my first thought was why did they let all those nypd nyfd guys in there at the front at the last minute?

It was obvious many were not fast (many were fat) and they would impede runners behind.

It was a nice symbolic gesture, but it was not well thought out.

That group did not have enough time to enjoy the starting line and take selfies before they filed in. Maybe not having to stand around in their corral for a half hour or more before the start was a benefit for them, but many of them would have enjoyed being at the start longer to take in the spectacle.

I am not sure what sort of deal was worked out with those officers, but the NYC marathon pays for police coverage of the event. I recall entry fees went up dramatically a few years ago at New York and other marathons when cities decided (as they should) that these events need to pay for services provided.

While I respect what police, firefighters and even people in the military do, I am getting tired of the preferential treatment being given to these people. (I am not sure if their position at NYC marathon was preferential or not, Perhaps it was a deal where the police and fire departments gave NYC mara a break on charges for services provided in exchange for that)

Becoming a police officer, firefighter or member of the military is a choice, it is a paid job, and those individuals are well compensated for their effort and commitment. Yes they sometimes go beyond what is necessary in their line of work, but there are people in all types of work who give more than is necessary. There are many other people who risk their lives as part of their work.

I agree that your chances of running fast are better at some other marathon that is not NYC or a big city race. But I can see the attraction of wanting to run fast at a big race. The big races get more attention by the general public, the press, and people who do not know much about running,

A 2:24 time at a big race is viewed by many as superior to a 2:24 at the Pudnuck Marathon or wherever. It the stage, circumstances, and place associated with the event that matter. These add extra value to performances achieved there.. Same reason why Rudisha's 800 WR in the Olympic final is more impressive than if he did that in some other race.

ekw wrote:

angryjohnny wrote:

other than the Olympic trials, NYC is probably the hardest race in the US to qualify for

Da Fuq you talkin' bout?

Other than the trials, I'm not aware of another marathon with higher qualifying standards than NYC. Guaranteed entry for NYC was 2:55 for my age group, which is faster than Boston (3:10) and Chicago (3:15). That may not mean anything to the typical Letsrun poster who can train through a 2:15 but for me it was a significant accomplishment just to qualify for NYC.

",..police officer, firefighter or member of the military is a choice..."

I run 5K (mostly) to HM races on average every other week. I avoid those with police or military themes. They can have those races to themselves and their groupies. I already gave at the paycheck and property tax stub.

Angryjohnny wrote:

It was also ridiculous how we were crammed into the corral like sardines and forced stand for a solid 35-40 minutes before the race started with no access to water, toilets, etc. And this was all after having to wake up at 5:00 to take the subway, then a ferry, then a bus, to Staten Island.

I've done NYCM and agree. But it is a mass-participation event, not a time-trial catering to 2:30-3:00 runners. Don't like it? Don't run it. Or qualify for the special treatment, with not even that fast of a HM or marathon. (1:12?)

For a race optimizing your crappy performance level (and mine), run Chicago next time. Great experience for us sub-sub-elites, and the start is 10 minutes from a number of hotels downtown.

Yeah seems like the OP just wanted to hate on slow people and feel justified doing it....

Going way back -- it began as crowd control.

In 1992, the NY TImes reported "About 200 semi-elite male runners....jumped the cannon and created a massive, unrecallable false start.....As a result ....a 55-second differential was added to the times of all male runners, but the top 100 women runners had hand-held timers that clearly started them at the designated time."

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/11/02/sports/new-york-city-marathon-mtolo-makes-up-for-lost-time-and-captures-the-marathon.html

Only a few months later tennis pro Monica Seles was stabbed during a match.

All of a sudden crowd control and protecting athlete safety became front-of-mind issues. While a knife attack would be a low probability, a mass false start that tramples unsuspecting pros remains a real risk to this day.

So the NYPD (later FDNY too) were asked to line up between the pros and the rest of the field, and lock arms and brace themselves to prevent a forward swell. They got a good starting position but they were also doing a favor to NYRR and the pros. I'm not sure this arrangement remains in place but if so it's not just a frivolous gift to insiders.

I've been on both sides of the divide. It's great to have the pro start -- but my 3 fastest times on that course came from behind the NYPD -- and because the corral system is imperfect I had to pass other lard-butts in French-flag tights and funny hats in the first half mile, who somehow got ahead of me.

The key is not to panic on the bridge. Anyone running under 2:50 is pretty much guaranteed to have all the running room they need before mile 2. And crowds can govern against a too-fast uphill first mile on cold legs that can cost you big later on.

You Suck wrote:

Cry Cry Cry, if you are a 1:13 Half Marathon runner you suck. Stop your crying and run around people, or just stay home.

I wish I was fast enough to suck by letsrun standards......

I wouldn't mind offering military folks some preferential treatment at a race. They get paid dirt, they have little control over the dungholes the government sends them to, they don't get lavish retirement packages, and overall, they're in much better shape.

That's not the case with police and firemen. They are very well compensated for what they do. NYCM fees have skyrocketed, due in part to the cost of overtime cops. It wouldn't surprise me if some of those "front runners" were being paid overtime just to be there. I wouldn't put it past them.

Flag Lapel Pin Patriot wrote:

",..police officer, firefighter or member of the military is a choice..."

I run 5K (mostly) to HM races on average every other week. I avoid those with police or military themes. They can have those races to themselves and their groupies. I already gave at the paycheck and property tax stub.

This...... I won't run any race that supports those bottom feeders.

If it were just fdny and nypd then there would be no problem. The problem is a swell of charity runners and 3+ runners in the same A corral. Rethink the corrals.

Bric wrote:

Do they not do the sub-elite corral that starts in a different spot anymore? I know they had one that was with the "green start" in 2014. I think there is also a local sub-elite spot. I guess you have the issue of starting in the lower part of the bridge with those ones, but you probably don't have to worry about getting hit with people peeing off the side if you're fast.

They do, and it's great, you just need to know how to get into it. My team had 17 people qualify for local competitive and of them I think 11 ran a BQ time and had no issue with slow runners in front of us. We're not NYAC but we have some people who take it seriously enough. Granted we're local and know the system is there, so that helps, but they definitely give you an opportunity to be at the front if you time qualify and jump through the proper hoops.

All military recruits are their by choice, not drafted or forced into duty for their country. They know the pay and benefits before enlisting. A lot of our troops cannot find employment elsewhere and are more like the Beetle Bailey or Gomer Pyle, and keep re-enlisting until they reach high year tenure and are asked to leave. I am retired and consider my benefits from military service very adequate. I have gotten many race entry fee discounts but out of respect for the sport never use my military duty to take a entry spot for those more deserving (qualifying time). I am a sub 3 hour runner and line up in the 7:00 minute mile pace corral, and have stood next to a 300 lb woman, wearing a tutu with a 5 bottle fuel belt and leggings and carrying a phone. I can just imagine how thousands of runners had to weave around this waddler while taking her selfies.

There are a few things in this response I like:

(1) running a race in the streets of NYC while more than a million people cheer you on is pretty freaking cool

Based on what I've viewed on TV this is absolutely true.

(2) NYC is one of the six majors

This makes it that much more of an attraction for runners that are capable of hitting the NYC qualifying standards.

(3) other than the Olympic trials, NYC is probably the hardest race in the US to qualify for

This is a pretty big deal to many folks. Everyone wants to get their "BQ", but rare is the occasion that people talk about the NYC standards. Why? Because they are tougher and more exclusionary. +1 for us speedier folks.

(6) NYC is easier for me to get to than say CIM or Grandmas

To suggest that someone run a marathon on the opposite side of the US doesn't make sense when there's a World Marathon Major race in their "backyard". If a WMM is prioritizing the "masses" over the speedy I'd bet that they will eventually endanger their WMM status.

Beyond these great points is another topic brought up once as well. Safety. These slower runners don't like being passed by faster runners anymore than the faster runners like having to weave through the slower runners. Flip it around or allow more time - a lot more time - for everyone to spread out.

I also ran in the first corral and had the 300 people filed in in front of me. It was not a big deal, at all. I easily got through the crowd, hit the mile in a little under 6 minutes and the 2 mile in 11:10 or so and was free and clear for the rest of the race. There is a local competitive start for people on NYC club teams and a sub elite start if you can realistically crack 2:30, so it's not like they completely ignore the serious runners. For the rest of us 2:30-2:40 guys, the crowd in front of the first corral MAYBE cost us 5 seconds, and that's generous.

Also, I ran the race back in 2011 and they did the same thing but didn't hold wave 1 for a minute after the start like they did this year. The result was we slammed right into the back of that crowd and it was very hard to pass. Giving them a minute to get running spreads them out enough that there is room to weave through, so really I thought it was a pretty smart move. Plus with timing mats, who cares if we were a minute back at the start?

Lastly, the NYPD/FDNY mayor's cup race is a cool tradition that goes back decades. Usually both crews have a group of guy under 3 hours, it's a solid part of the city's culture. Putting them up front doesn't bother me in the least.

All in all, the NYRR does a phenomenal job with that race. The corrals are well organized, spacious, and easy to navigate. There are great facilities, coffee, water, snacks in the start village, and the course is wonderfully managed and maintained. I'm sorry you feel slighted, but personally, I can't agree with your assessment here.

They wouldn't need to find employment elsewhere if they were cops. "20 and out"!!