What does "run as a team" mean?

My thought would be to ask him.

Since you don't seem to want to do that, depending on how many races you have left, you might try both of your suggestions. If you have been mostly going out fast and slowly dying, try running the first half of a race with #6 and #7 to see if having more energy left helps you run a faster time. If you have always paced yourself, challenge yourself to hang onto #4 until you drop.

Now if you only have your championship season/top 7 qualifying races left, you may not want to try something new, but even a "semi-important" invitational should be used to learn more that can be used for the big end of the year races.

While I can't say what your coach means by "run as a team", for the teams I was on, runner #5 was the TEAM runner. If #5 had a good day, we won, if not, we lost. This means you have to be willing to risk your individual glory of running #5 every time to try things that will make you a better runner in the most important races.

It means the fastest runners have to run slower so the slugs who don't come to practice can keep up.

Screw the team run for yourself!!!!

El Hefe wrote:

It means the fastest runners have to run slower so the slugs who don't come to practice can keep up.

Screw the team run for yourself!!!!

yeah, maybe in college (and I say maybe) you can pull this off, but on a team with big gaps in ability/fitness; I don't get it. If I'm #1 runner no way am I slowing down to run "as a team" when the gun fires I'm racing everyone there- my own team mates included.

It means nothing if uses that phrase without saying what he wants from you.

El Hefe wrote:

It means the fastest runners have to run slower so the slugs who don't come to practice can keep up.

Screw the team run for yourself!!!!

Rock on dude!

Just had this conversation the other day. I asked the fella to clarify and he wouldn't so I stated that our philosophy of team is to bring the best individual contribution.

Teammates can often help each other PR. That's great. But do not slow down just to bring up #5. That is the coach's job. If he burdens you with that then coach cares more about his CV than about you.

When college coaches look at you they evaluate you based on your individual time. If HS coach expects you to undermine your chances, that's messed up. Let him find someone else to replace you.

I certainly second the recommendation to talk to your coach and find out what he actually means.

I will say that, in my experience, some runners of *similar* ability declined to run with each other and would always be a few yards apart. That's messed up IMO because we know that if people run closer--close enough to be able to reach out and touch the other--then they face somewhat less air resistance and are able to run a bit faster.

I often had my guys do repeats as pack work, both to get used to running close to teammates and to get comfortable running in a crowd; but I wouldn't expect a 26-minute guy and a 28-minute guy to be running together *in races*. I *would* expect a 25:50 guy and a 26:02 guy to run together in most of their races.

TL, DR: Talk to your coach.

duckerrr wrote:

El Hefe wrote:

It means the fastest runners have to run slower so the slugs who don't come to practice can keep up.

Screw the team run for yourself!!!!

Rock on dude!

Just had this conversation the other day. I asked the fella to clarify and he wouldn't so I stated that our philosophy of team is to bring the best individual contribution.

Teammates can often help each other PR. That's great. But do not slow down just to bring up #5. That is the coach's job. If he burdens you with that then coach cares more about his CV than about you.

When college coaches look at you they evaluate you based on your individual time. If HS coach expects you to undermine your chances, that's messed up. Let him find someone else to replace you.

It's not your coach's job to get you a scholarship.

Should a basketball coach tell their best player to take every shot during a game?

Cross Country is a team sport, so your coach is likely trying to win as a team. Guess what? In college your coach is going to do the same damn thing.

duckerrr wrote:

El Hefe wrote:

It means the fastest runners have to run slower so the slugs who don't come to practice can keep up.

Screw the team run for yourself!!!!

Rock on dude!

Just had this conversation the other day. I asked the fella to clarify and he wouldn't so I stated that our philosophy of team is to bring the best individual contribution.

Teammates can often help each other PR. That's great. But do not slow down just to bring up #5. That is the coach's job. If he burdens you with that then coach cares more about his CV than about you.

When college coaches look at you they evaluate you based on your individual time. If HS coach expects you to undermine your chances, that's messed up. Let him find someone else to replace you.

So teammates can help each other PR but only if they are similar in time already? You, as a better runner, can't or shouldn't sacrifice some personal glory to help teach another runner how to race and improve? Really this argument boils down to whether you see cross country as a team sport or an individual sport. I have always seen it as a team sport. Most important guys on the team are the #4 and #5, and in particular early in the season I have asked my #1 and #2 to control their race to help benefit our #4-#7. The real problem with this philosophy is what the OP points out, most people who say it have no idea why they are saying it. If a coach talks about running as a team, I think he is then obligated with providing a plan to execute as a team and can explain the philosophy completely.

On your assertion that college coaches evaluate you based on your times, I was talking to a Hall of Fame college coach last night who said he doesn't care about times. He evaluates a recruit based on their attitude.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA that coach is full of sh--

Good retort! Well thought out and reasoned!

everybody takes up a body position. You could be the left leg, for example. Instead of running, you jump when it's your turn (alternate with the right leg). The "body" stands on your shoulder, and holds onto the two "arms". The "body" person needs to have really strong upper body strength.

oftenrunning52 wrote:

So.... wrote:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA that coach is full of sh--

Good retort! Well thought out and reasoned!

So he would take a 20:00 HS 5k runner over a 14:00 HS 5k runner as long as the first had a better attitude? Note that this doesn't even mean that the 14:00 guy has a bad attitude, just that the 20:00 guy's attitude is slightly better, which is all that matter's according to this coach.

The 14:00 5K believes the team is beneath him and maybe even the coach/school is beneath him. The 20:00 5K believes the team is important and believes the coach/school are a God send. This coach says I can work with one and he has found where he belongs and I will struggle to work with the other and it's likely not where he belongs. Why waste time and effort on a kid who might survive four years with your program (ie Verzbicus at Oregon or Webb at Michigan).

Usually when my coach says that, he means the slower runners should try and stick with the faster runners, this pushes everybody and makes people moving up in the race as a pack

RUN THE BEST RACE YOU CAN

THATS THE BEST WAY TO HELP THE TEAM

IF YOU AREN'T FIRST ON THE TEAM,

CHASE THE TEAMMATE AHEAD OF YOU

Run as a team for me meant win the race and then go back and cheer my teammates on as they started getting to the finish line a minute or two later.

I was voted MVP but still don't know if it was because I was a very good runner or a very good cheerleader.

oftenrunning52 wrote:

The 14:00 5K believes the team is beneath him and maybe even the coach/school is beneath him. The 20:00 5K believes the team is important and believes the coach/school are a God send. This coach says I can work with one and he has found where he belongs and I will struggle to work with the other and it's likely not where he belongs. Why waste time and effort on a kid who might survive four years with your program (ie Verzbicus at Oregon or Webb at Michigan).

You seem to indicate that you are some sort of coach. I do not buy it. With such major flaws in your arguments I fail to see how anyone would listen to you. To suggest that Vz was a waste of time makes it clear that you are in the wrong profession if you are indeed a coach. The kid worked his heart out then he gives up. Great! Coach had nothing to do with it. Coach did not sell him on a dream and it is not possible that coach fell short or that something of an adolescent nature happened along the way. But that is nothing that a coach would understand and makes Vz a waste. Let's sympathize with the coach ... chorus please ...

You don't get this. It is not about you. It is about the athletes. You may have gotten lucky once but I know your reasoning does not work.

In the case of OP, why would he help #6 displace him from the #5 spot. It goes against a basic human instinct - survival.

This would work only in the case of an island cluster such #2 where everyone else is sufficiently far away.

Why do you think runners sprint out at the sound of the cannon? Should they 'control' their pace so they stay together to play your game? No man, they run because it is fun. It is fun to go all out, to run someone down, tire them out, intimidate and make all those in front of you know you are there. You should consider posting your philosophy openly on the website because. This is material information. It is tough to transfer to another school.

BTW, you would have no power to pressure your #1 to 'control' his pace if he is a 15min runner. If he quits, you do not have to capacity to help your #5 to improve his mechanics and strength so that he gets faster. So I would say that your #1 has the upper hand. He quits, your results will suffer.

Let the kids run. Get out of the way. Running is fun. You do not have to disguise it. It reminds me of my grandma trying to get me to eat eggplant. Running ain't eggplant. The kids who are great runners find the sport exhilarating. Stop being a stumbling block and a trap.

In regard to how college coaches evaluate, you are wrong. I am right.

Waste.

Confused, try to catch up to #4. Do not slow down for #5. Better yourself and go places. If you work hard and give it your best, then your are a great teammate.