St. George's Marathon is this weekend. Just remember that's not actually your real PR.

STG wrote:

Hardrock 100 wrote:

St. George ought to reverse the course every other year. One year downhill. Next year uphill.

A buddy of mine and one of the best humans you could ever meet:

http://www.thespectrum.com/story/news/2015/10/02/reese-running-four-back--back-marathons/73215328/

Your buddy is a dipshit and a skid mark on the ultra community. He's a self-aggrandizing, stunt-performing ass clown a'la Dean K except without the talent. What other hobby jogger would write an entire book about his back of the pack jogging exploits. "Hey everyone! Look at me! I'm jogging in a cat onesie and jumping off stuff to try and look cool while jogging 20 minute miles! Look at me!! Write about me and my stunt in the newspaper!! I've barely finished a few long races!! Look at me!" Karl Meltzer doesn't have a book. Geoff Roes doesn't have a book. Rob Krar doesn't have a book. But your slow fatass hobbyjogger assclown has a book. Go spread that cancer somewhere else moron.

you dont know wrote:

Real Running wrote:

I think, given that Paul ran 2:22:XX less than a month later at the OTM, suggests he was in and around 2:20 shape (all things being equal - note, he ran TOU as a training run in September too). Over the years, Paul has been in and around 2:18-2:22 (with some slower runs).There hasn't really been a spike in performance. He has consistently performed well.

Paul's record speaks for itself.

This indicates nothing. Since you're not Paul, for all you know, Paul may have known he got the OTQ and eased up to save himself for the trials a few weeks later.

That's a good point, however, this suggests he didn't:

"Now I knew the "A" standard was a virtual certainty. I was hurting, my muscles were screaming at me, but I was not near the Wall. "There will be no Wall." I ran Mile 25 in 5:13 just to prove the point to my doubting mind. Now it was just a mile race. Just a 1600m track interval. "There will be no Wall". And there was no Wall. Last Mile in 5:13. Last 0.2 in 1:07. Last Half in 1:06:45."

But you make a valid point. And for the sake of clarity: the quote is from Paul's blog. worth reading...

[quote]$$$$$ for sub-2 wrote:

If some wealthy dude with money to burn wanted to offer $1M for a sub 2 hour marathon, it could happen at St George. All it would take is some 2:05 ish marathoner quote]

Not quite. My calculations have the course being close to 4 minutes faster. The first 7 miles drops 700 ft but starts at 5200 which negates some of the advantage. Should be able to run 10 seconds/mile for that stretch. Next 7 miles is gradual up and down so there is no advantage or disadvantage. Last 11 miles avg. about a 3% drop. This should give 15 seconds per mile or 165 seconds. That adds up to 235 seconds or just under 4 minutes.

is this helpful??? wrote:

[quote]$$$$$ for sub-2 wrote:

If some wealthy dude with money to burn wanted to offer $1M for a sub 2 hour marathon, it could happen at St George. All it would take is some 2:05 ish marathoner quote]

Not quite. My calculations have the course being close to 4 minutes faster. The first 7 miles drops 700 ft but starts at 5200 which negates some of the advantage. Should be able to run 10 seconds/mile for that stretch. Next 7 miles is gradual up and down so there is no advantage or disadvantage. Last 11 miles avg. about a 3% drop. This should give 15 seconds per mile or 165 seconds. That adds up to 235 seconds or just under 4 minutes.

I think that's a fair reflection of the course.

Now

Real Running wrote:

you dont know wrote:

This indicates nothing. Since you're not Paul, for all you know, Paul may have known he got the OTQ and eased up to save himself for the trials a few weeks later.

That's a good point, however, this suggests he didn't:

"Now I knew the "A" standard was a virtual certainty. I was hurting, my muscles were screaming at me, but I was not near the Wall. "There will be no Wall." I ran Mile 25 in 5:13 just to prove the point to my doubting mind. Now it was just a mile race. Just a 1600m track interval. "There will be no Wall". And there was no Wall. Last Mile in 5:13. Last 0.2 in 1:07. Last Half in 1:06:45."

But you make a valid point. And for the sake of clarity: the quote is from Paul's blog. worth reading...

People list "aided PR's" on their blogs now? Is this a thing?

But I guess it is an acknowledgement that it isn't a true PR, so it would seem that Paul himself agrees that St. George's isn't a legit course.

Crescent Fresh wrote:

STG wrote:

A buddy of mine and one of the best humans you could ever meet:

http://www.thespectrum.com/story/news/2015/10/02/reese-running-four-back--back-marathons/73215328/

Your buddy is a dipshit and a skid mark on the ultra community. He's a self-aggrandizing, stunt-performing ass clown a'la Dean K except without the talent. What other hobby jogger would write an entire book about his back of the pack jogging exploits. "Hey everyone! Look at me! I'm jogging in a cat onesie and jumping off stuff to try and look cool while jogging 20 minute miles! Look at me!! Write about me and my stunt in the newspaper!! I've barely finished a few long races!! Look at me!" Karl Meltzer doesn't have a book. Geoff Roes doesn't have a book. Rob Krar doesn't have a book. But your slow fatass hobbyjogger assclown has a book. Go spread that cancer somewhere else moron.

And funded with a Kickstarter no less...lol

So who's actually running it this year? Any big names or decent sub-elite names in it?

STG wrote:

A buddy of mine and one of the best humans you could ever meet:

http://www.thespectrum.com/story/news/2015/10/02/reese-running-four-back--back-marathons/73215328/

"Hey everyone!! Look at me!! Look at ME!!! Aren't I CRAZYYYYY?? I do stunts and I can barely finish a couple ultras but I wrote a book!!!"

I'd say this guy's one of the biggest shit stains in the running community if he was a runner. Fûcking poser.

Best Human wrote:

Crescent Fresh wrote:

Your buddy is a dipshit and a skid mark on the ultra community. He's a self-aggrandizing, stunt-performing ass clown a'la Dean K except without the talent. What other hobby jogger would write an entire book about his back of the pack jogging exploits. "Hey everyone! Look at me! I'm jogging in a cat onesie and jumping off stuff to try and look cool while jogging 20 minute miles! Look at me!! Write about me and my stunt in the newspaper!! I've barely finished a few long races!! Look at me!" Karl Meltzer doesn't have a book. Geoff Roes doesn't have a book. Rob Krar doesn't have a book. But your slow fatass hobbyjogger assclown has a book. Go spread that cancer somewhere else moron.

And funded with a Kickstarter no less...lol

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1860738459/nowhere-near-first-a-book-about-ultramarathon-adve

And you'll never guess who wrote the blurb on the front cover...none other than the king of self-aggrandizing assclown stunt monkeys himself--Dean Karnazes

Crescent Fresh wrote:

Best Human wrote:

And funded with a Kickstarter no less...lol

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1860738459/nowhere-near-first-a-book-about-ultramarathon-adve

And you'll never guess who wrote the blurb on the front cover...none other than the king of self-aggrandizing assclown stunt monkeys himself--Dean Karnazes

https://www.amazon.com/Nowhere-Near-First-Ultramarathon-Adventures/dp/1537001809#immersive-view_1475210745783

It hasn't received a single negative review on Amazon. 4.9/5 All five stars save for one four star. I wonder how many of those people are friends or family? It's VERY rare to have an almost perfect review.

I am not trying to say that the course is not easier to run a fast time on for most people but it is worth noting that some people have a lot of trouble running on downhill. For instance, there are some people who would really struggle with a course like this, especially if they had not trained for the downhills. Downhills can be a challenge all their own

Downhill hurts wrote:

I am not trying to say that the course is not easier to run a fast time on for most people but it is worth noting that some people have a lot of trouble running on downhill. For instance, there are some people who would really struggle with a course like this, especially if they had not trained for the downhills. Downhills can be a challenge all their own

Very few sections are steeply down. The elevation profile is misleading. If you stretch the y-axis with the same units as the x-axis, it'll look almost flat. So anytime you think you're running on the flats, it's slightly down hill. You'll be like "wow I'm feeling strong today" but really it's just oh so slightly downhill.

The only places on earth at sea level are at the seaside? Who knew?

High Tide wrote:

LOL ... Fontana is 50 miles from sea level. That is some half marathon.

OP here.....guess you guys proved my point. Good luck to these wannabes tomorrow.

I have never understood people trying to run BQs or set PRs on these races. (St George, Cottonwood, El Paso, Phoenix, etc) Interestingly enough, I've known a couple people who have trained for and race each of the ones I've listed and never ran a BQ on them, or set PRs on them. They either underestimate the cumulative pounding the race will do on your legs and/or didn't even bother to mix in some downhill runs in their training. I personally discourage people from running these races.

Setting aside the BQ and PR discussion, is there any training benefit for a mostly HM hobby jogger to do this type of distance and downward incline? Does it help leg turnover? I would expect to train shorter distances with same topography leading up to it for quad conditioning purposes.

I had come across something along those lines somewhere in the midwest earlier this spring but couldn't make it. I think it was for 20 miles, so nothing to do with BQ and an odd distance anyway for PR boasting.

Thanks in advance!

stgeezy wrote:

So who's actually running it this year? Any big names or decent sub-elite names in it?

Fritz Van de Kamp, Riley Cook, Hayden Hawks, Ben Van Beekum, I think Bryant is running, there are probably a couple other fast Wasatch Front guys too. I'd look for Hayden and Riley to go out near CR pace, I don't think Hayden's run a road 26 yet but he crushed some big trail races and I know he's in good shape. I think Riley's in great shape too. Fritz is looking good, I bet he'll run somewhere around 2:20, probably close to Ben. Daniel Bishop will probably sneak in a bit under 2:30 as well. No idea on non-Utah people.

St George is one of the fastest marathon courses in the world and it's certainly aided, but it's not 10 minutes aided unless you're a wheelchair marathoner (in which case it's probably substantially more than 10 minutes, although I don't know much about wheelchair marathoning).

By Jack Daniels equations, it's about 2:20 faster than even Dubai (so flat compared to even the standard "flat" marathons that people think it's short due to how much faster people run here than at other big "flat" marathons that aren't actually nearly as flat!) for someone that's roughly a 2:50 marathoner. Thus, the average runner, if ready for the downhill, should be able to run, 4-5 minutes faster at St. George than at the average "decently fast" marathon course, and 3-4 minutes faster than even something "flat" like Chicago (clearly not a track).

The most competitive local guys (usually around 2:19 ot low-2:20s) can typically sneak about 2 minutes off their PRs here, which is consistent with Daniels.

FWIW, I ran St George for the only time in 2014 after running 2:42 at Phoenix in the spring (about twice as downhill, net, as Boston, but with the joy of running in heavy raining and a strong headwind that year). My training was super mediocre for St George and I finished in 2:49 with a stress fracture. That downhill will thrash you if you're not fit.