Renato CANOVA: congratulations for BEKELE!

Maybe that sometimes I’m not able to explain what I think, for some language problem.

At first, I never said there are “top, mutated athletes who don’t benefit from EPO”, because “mutated athletes” don’t exist.

Before better explaining my thoughts, try to answer the following questions :

1) Which are the differences between a World Record Holder in endurance events and a normal athlete ? (Of course there is some difference, otherwise everybody could be record holder)

2) Which are the DIFFERENT ADAVANTAGES top athletes can have, compared with “normal” athletes ?

3) If there are different advantages, HAVE TOP ATHLETES AND NORMAL ATHLETES THE SAME MOTIVATION AND THE SAME PROFESSIONALISM IN TRAINING ?

4) If the difference of advantages and of motivations is a stimulus for MORE VOLUME AND MORE INTENSITY IN TRAINING, can this training produce the same effects of the training of normal athletes ?

5) Which is the difference that, for example, running 30 km at 3’ per km can produce under physiological point of view, comparing with running 30 km at 4’per km for a normal athlete ?

6) Why a top athlete of 800m can reach a level of of lactate higher than 20mml, when a normal athlete is not able to reach a level of 12-14 ?

7) Why a top Kenyan can run a full marathon at 180-190 HR and an athlete of sea level is not able to do ?

8) Why a top Kenyan can reach a max level of 200-220 HR after a max sprint on 300m uphill, while a strong European can’t overtake 180 ?

I want to see your answers, before explaining the points you wrote in your post.

Renato, why is it that many of the top African marathon runners like Kipchoge, Bekele, and previously Gebrselassie, tend to run the fast flat courses like London, Rotterdam, Berlin, and Chicago, rather than courses like Boston and New York? Do they only care about the world record?

First, I want to make Renato's point very clear, because it is causing there to be discussion on a useless topic when we could be discussing top athletes and what they did to get there.

He did not say EPO doesn't work on Kenyans, or Africans or any group. He doesn't believe that someone who has used good endurance training at a correct altitude to optimize their blood values for endurance running can further improve their running ability by using EPO.

I want to make an allegory to a fat burner. If an athlete is overweight, will they get faster by using a fat burner drug? Of course they will. But what if they run high mileage with plenty of high end aerobic work for many months? They may naturally reach their limit of body fat. A fat burner drug will still likely cause them to lose body fat, but it will hinder performance now because the athlete was already at their healthy limit of body fat.

Now I want to answer the questions in a constructive manner because we can all learn something about training this way.

Maybe that sometimes I’m not able to explain what I think, for some language problem.

At first, I never said there are “top, mutated athletes who don’t benefit from EPO”, because “mutated athletes” don’t exist.

Before better explaining my thoughts, try to answer the following questions :

1) Which are the differences between a World Record Holder in endurance events and a normal athlete ? (Of course there is some difference, otherwise everybody could be record holder)

Reasons can include bigger heart, bigger blood vessels. More elastic heart, blood vessels, muscles and tendons. Lightweight structure. Bigger mitochondria. There are other reasons, many of which we probably don't know. For example, can anyone tell me what talents Jordan Spieth has to make him the number one golfer in the world at age 21? It is okay not to know all the reasons. But we must respect that God made there to be a wide variety in peak ability levels for all activities, including running.

2) Which are the DIFFERENT ADAVANTAGES top athletes can have, compared with “normal” athletes ?

Massages, blood tests (to quickly find illness, low minerals, overtraining), working with top coaches and specialists for every need.

3) If there are different advantages, HAVE TOP ATHLETES AND NORMAL ATHLETES THE SAME MOTIVATION AND THE SAME PROFESSIONALISM IN TRAINING ?

Much of the reason there is a big gap between the top local athletes and top international athletes is the ability to change the status and earn money that otherwise would have been impossible. This is an incredible motivator for the months and years of difficulty and suffering that full training is.

4) If the difference of advantages and of motivations is a stimulus for MORE VOLUME AND MORE INTENSITY IN TRAINING, can this training produce the same effects of the training of normal athletes ?

No. That is how they reach the top level.

5) Which is the difference that, for example, running 30 km at 3’ per km can produce under physiological point of view, comparing with running 30 km at 4’per km for a normal athlete ?

6) Why a top athlete of 800m can reach a level of of lactate higher than 20mml, when a normal athlete is not able to reach a level of 12-14 ?

May have to do with athlete's lactic engine (a slow twitch athlete will never reach 20 mmol, no matter how trained). But assuming the same athlete, it is because they have done much training to increase the ability of their lactic engine's max intensity.

7) Why a top Kenyan can run a full marathon at 180-190 HR and an athlete of sea level is not able to do ?

Increasing the endurance of their engine through long intervals and fast long runs. Of course some may be genetic.

8) Why a top Kenyan can reach a max level of 200-220 HR after a max sprint on 300m uphill, while a strong European can’t overtake 180 ?

Some is genetic, but similar to the marathoners able to do marathon at 180-190, they increase their heart's ability (and other systems that allow their heart to pump)

I want to see your answers, before explaining the points you wrote in your post.

Actually some good questions. I will answer within 2-3 days if nobody else does.

A few things we know for sure:

a) A training load of 200km/week can produce either a great marathon

or a terrible one. Volume alone is no panacea.

b) All top marathoners currently are capable of < 5' 2000m and < 11.5 100m.

Speed-side capability provides the bulk of the predictive value when it comes to marathon time.

c) The shorter the race duration, the higher HR that is maintained.

A 4:03 marathoners or a 3:03 marathoners are not really running the same event as a 2:03 marathoners.

I'm not interested in talking about doping or stirring up controversy. I got carried away when that was the conversation, but I want to ask about something different, if you don't mind weighing in. I've been looking at the proposed IAAF constitution, and have this question:

With your experience in several different national federations (Qatar, Kenya, China, among others), what do you think is the ideal role of a national federation? What should their responsibilities (and limits) be with regards to setting up training and training camps, facilitating connections among athletes and coaches/agents, requiring competitions and the competitive calendar and funding athletes or facilitating sponsorships?

You have posted before about mandatory training camps by Athletics Kenya interfering with athletes' performances. Are there other examples of overreach by national federations that should be avoided? Are there positive examples of policy or practices that should be emulated elsewhere?

So you really believe Dennis Kimetto and Wilson Kipsang can run a 11.5s 100m, while Mo Farah, a 3:28 1500m runner, could barely crack 13s for the 100m?

Clerk, I think this argument can merit a dedicated thread.

Please, start a new thread about it, and I will be glad to answer any question and to share my experience.

3) A running technique with more frequency, trying to have his strides a little bit shorter, in order to remain more "high" at the speed of the marathon, and to use less energy for that speed (that for him is not fast).

>>>>

Canova, I always appreciate your posts on training, but would you mind elaborating on this one? What did you mean by "remain more "high" " , and what does stride frequency have to do with marathon running?

Thank you in advance!

dsrunner wrote:

A few things we know for sure:

b) All top marathoners currently are capable of < 5' 2000m and < 11.5 100m.

I doubt there is a single top marathoner capable of a sub 11.5 for 100m.

smile wrote:

dsrunner wrote:

A few things we know for sure:

b) All top marathoners currently are capable of < 5' 2000m and < 11.5 100m.

I doubt there is a single top marathoner capable of a sub 11.5 for 100m.

I doubt that very many are capable of sub 5' for 2000m either.

A couple of thoughts on top marathoners and doping..

There have been few or no busts at the top level 2-03 to 2-05 range,maybe 1 or 2 at most.

Assuming 2-03 to 2-05 has been ran clean ,then it's reasonable to assume that these times can be ran clean with the correct training as Renato asserts.

Now that doesn't mean i believe Geb or Bekele were clean at their peak over 5-10,000 because i don't believe they were.

My hunch is there is a mix of clean and doped guys at the top end of male marathoning. I also believe that all records from 1500 to 10,000 are doped(mainly EPO) where the benefit is greater.

Renato Canova wrote:

Clerk, I think this argument can merit a dedicated thread.

Please, start a new thread about it, and I will be glad to answer any question and to share my experience.

Coach Canova, how big a role did Supercompensation play in Bekele's return to form and Berlin marathon performance? Since 2010 fans have read and heard of bekele' injury issues coupled with disappointing performances. Surely the super compensation "homework" was completed with great diligence for the change to have happened

It's an interesting thought.Looking at the top-100 marathon runners, producing the top-210 performances of 2:06:31 or better, I found two runners that were sanctioned, and none with best times better than 2:05:- Wilson Erupe (ranked 38), with a marathon best of 2:05:13 (in 2016), busted for EPO in 2012- Abderrahim Goumri (ranked 48), with a marathon best of 2:05:30 (in 2008), busted (in 2012?) for ABP irregularities, backdated to 2009Have any of the remaining 98 runners been sanctioned?The fastest marathon performance actually annulled due to doping I could find being Julio Rey's 2:07:37 (busted for Mesterolone, a relatively weak androgen), who did eventually go on to produce a 2:06:52 in 2006.

just sayin wrote:

A couple of thoughts on top marathoners and doping..

There have been few or no busts at the top level 2-03 to 2-05 range,maybe 1 or 2 at most.

Assuming 2-03 to 2-05 has been ran clean ,then it's reasonable to assume that these times can be ran clean with the correct training as Renato asserts.

...

Similarly, for the women, the obvious names that come to mind are:

- Liliya Shobukhova (2:18:20)

- Rita Jeptoo (2:18:57)

How many more of the top-100 women (producing 231 performances of 2:23:36 or better) have been sanctioned? I found four athletes with performances annulled:

2:20:23 Wei Yanan CHN (2002 for ?)

2:21:29a Aliaksandra Duliba BLR (2013 for ABP)

2:22:09 Tetyana Hamera-Shmyrko UKR (2011 for ABP)

2:22:27 Mariya Konovalova RUS (2009 for ABP)

running historian wrote:

smile wrote:

I doubt there is a single top marathoner capable of a sub 11.5 for 100m.

I doubt that very many are capable of sub 5' for 2000m either.

Only Bekele and Kipchoge were capable, but I doubt that even they could still do that now.

Taking a deep breath wrote:

running historian wrote:

I doubt that very many are capable of sub 5' for 2000m either.

Only Bekele and Kipchoge were capable, but I doubt that even they could still do that now.

I think they could still do it. Just think in the Berlin Marathon, Bekele's first km was 2:40 and he ran 41.2km after that. Taking 10 seconds off a km and repeating it twice is doable imo

I keep this short and simple, because this is off-topic of a dead thread. It seems that Italian runners have been visiting this mysterious Dr. Orava for at least 32 years. Here is a quote from a Finnish daily newspaper Keskipohjanmaa (8/23/1984) I noticed in my research file:

The high quality of Finnish sports medicine has become known in Italy through the connections of doctor Carmelo Bosco, who works in Jyväskylä, Finland. Runners Claudio Carmosino (24), Tonino Feliel (21), Maurizio Salvi (20) and their coach Franco Monaldi (30) tell that among their friends, there are several athletes who have been treated by docent Sakari Orava. The results have been so encouraging, that even many more Italian sportspeople are considering to visit docent Orava in order to treat their sports injuries..

Hi Renato!

If as possible you talk for us about MODULATION and your style of periodization. Because vou alternate some moments Duration x Extension and maintain speed.

Best Regards

Jorge Luis Da Silva

BRASIL.

JorgeLuis_Da Silva wrote:

Hi Renato!

If as possible you talk for us about MODULATION and your style of periodization. Because vou alternate some moments Duration x Extension and maintain speed.

Best Regards

Jorge Luis Da Silva

BRASIL.

No, sorry.