Renato CANOVA: congratulations for BEKELE!

Canova,

People here might not agree with you on everything but I think everyone appreciates that you take the time to post here.

So thanks.

doot doot wrote:

Canova,

People here might not agree with you on everything but I think everyone appreciates that you take the time to post here.

So thanks.

Agreed. I did mean to start off my reply with something similar.

"No.

They will avoid each other"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

They have raced many times and know each other very well. The money trail may in fact cause this if their coaching group feels they can't get a top 3 spot, then they'll select a race where that is more of a certainty. KB's fitness level has been all over the place since 2012, so it was incredibly impressive to see him finish so strong - that's why he's the World Record Holder that he is!

it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on the the mental impact for Bekele of working extensively with Pitsiladis, who firmly believes that a sub-2 hour marathon is within reach in the foreseeable future.

Renato CANOVA has posted something EXTREMELY interesting about BEKELE some time ago (when he was training him), which was not really about his mentality but more about his "brain ability" to fully relax when running (I quote Renato):

"

[Kenenisa BEKELE] main quality is an unbelievable ability to relax completely his body (that means his mind too) also when his effort is maximal. This is the factor allowing him to do the difference.

"

This is an aspect that is not often mentioned: the mental relaxation aspect... In his "80/20 training" book, Matt FITZGERALD analyzed this specific ability of the greatest:

« All great runners exhibit a subtler quality that we might call relaxed smooth ease […] The more relaxed a runner’s stride is, the more resistance that runner is to fatigue […]

Relaxed smooth ease is the visible manifestation of an acquired « quietness » in parts of the brain that control the body’s movement, a sort of neurological efficiency that allows the stride to be more adaptative. The ultimate mark of skillful running is the ability to run with minimal mental effort. »

So this is an aptitude that seems (according to Renato) to be extremely highly developed for BEKELE (along with his fantastic "engine" of course).

Another legendary runner who seemed to have developed to the extreme this particular "brain relaxation" (or "brain quietness while running") aptitude was Yiannis KOUROS, who shared with BEKELE the fact of training EXCEPTIONALLY LITTLE (with long periods where he completely stopped any running) compared to what is the "standard" to reach his level of performance.

This is below what KOUROS wrote about his training (the original text is in French, so this is basically a google translate version...):

"

Sometimes I stay several months without doing any running. I assume that it is impossible to accumulate enough kilometers to be physically ready for a 24 hour race, 100 km or 10 days. So I make the minimum. And I focus on the essential: meditation. I generally start to run two weeks before a competition, with two daily outings. I often I run just 20-22 km per session, varying paces, but never exceed the value of a marathon a day. In fact, I only seek to restart my cardiovascular system.

"

So, for KOUROS, the most important ingredient for his success was meditation (of course, like BEKELE, he had also exceptional natural running aptitudes)... that is to say "relaxed brain" training...

Like for what Renato CANOVA wrote about BEKELE a few months ago, that he stopped any running for 11 months (because of an injury for him) and restart only 2 months before London, many people never believed KOUROS was telling truth when he said that. I do.

doot doot wrote:

Canova,

People here might not agree with you on everything but I think everyone appreciates that you take the time to post here.

So thanks.

Agreed.

Arguably the greatest coaches in endurance sports, the trailblazers, all have a very agreeable and a very conflicting side to them. Canova belongs into that category of greatness.

This really is the most important comment Renato has posted.

In a certain phase of my training late-base/early specificity I started doing harder efforts like 5x5min, 2x10min, 1x20 min.

These were more intense than what I had been used to for most of the summer, and midway through these workouts I would catch myself grimacing, shoulder up toward the ears, tense in the arms...etc.

About a month beforehand though, I had done an incredibly tough, 2+ long continuous hill workout in the heat with numerous segments at max effort, with blisters, and with scrapes from a non-running injury. Needless to say it was a wonder I made it through without stopping.

When I did my 5x5min tempo workouts and found myself grimacing and feeling sorry for myself, at some point I thought back to that killer workout, and recreated the pain and exertion of that day in my mind. Of course, the tempo intervals paled in comparison. I simply flipped a mental switch, and the effort was no long an effort at all.

In the weeks that followed, I reminded myself to flip that switch, and became better at it, to the point where I could run progressively faster up to a full sprint while still keeping the perceived exertion switch in its "off" position.

Unfortunately my training was interrupted not too long after, but I did some incredible workouts without feeling tired or feeling that they took much effort, despite being undoubtedly near my maximum performance levels.

Try thinking of the deepest pain/exhaustion you've ever experienced during a workout - in comparison, you might as well be out for a stroll, so relax like it. I imagine that's what the top athletes do.

BBen wrote:

...

"

[Kenenisa BEKELE] main quality is an unbelievable ability to relax completely his body (that means his mind too) also when his effort is maximal. This is the factor allowing him to do the difference.

"

...

This is an aspect that is not often mentioned: the mental relaxation aspect...

...

I am curious to hear if/how coaches try to train "mental relaxation".

Is no way to run high mileage without being relaxed, but this characteristic must be accidentally developed by runners on their own.

One way to consciously develop this mental relaxation could be to exercise the separation between physical and mental state. Usually the mental stress is proportional with the physical fatigue.

That's why I love Fartlek type of training; at some point, the mental stress is gone, since all physical efforts variation will set the mind free of that cozy state of slow running.

Renato,

What is Bekele's current 10000m ability TODAY? Is he able to compete with Farah?

Purdy says: 26:27.29Daniels says: 26:42.21The opposite question seems more appropriate: would Mo Farah be able to compete against an injury-free Bekele?

renato i have a question wrote:

Renato,

What is Bekele's current 10000m ability TODAY? Is he able to compete with Farah?

Clerk, every time you can work with an athlete of amazing level, you can learn something. In the case of Kenenisa, I teached him something new about training (his training was basically very simple, but the final goal was clear : to increase the quality), especially for Marathon and longest distances, and from his "confessions" about his previous training, and the type of mentality he had to have in order to motivate him, I learnt "again" something exclusive about the psychological needs top athletes must have.

We can divide our "technical relation" in two different branches :

the "methodological branch", where I gave Kenenisa something new, which not only could be more scientific as training, but gave him a new motivation, because after many years sometimes the athletes need to train in different way

and the "mental and psychological branch", where I learnt how the mind of all the top athletes WHO REFUSE TO LOSE works.

What I put in his training, new for him, were these elements :

1) More long run fast (previously, his long run was slow, while the "medium run", something till 20 km, was frequently very fast, but not fundamental for a marathon)

2) Specific marathon speed endurance, using long intervals at Marathon Pace connected with 1 km recovery at 85% - 90% of MP (for example,

1k + 2k + 3k +4k + 5k + 4k + 3k + 2k + 1k for a total of 33 km, with times as 2:45 - 5:42 - 8:40 - 11:38 - 14:35 and the km of recovery at 3:20 average)

3) A running technique with more frequency, trying to have his strides a little bit shorter, in order to remain more "high" at the speed of the marathon, and to use less energy for that speed (that for him is not fast).

What I learnt from him (and previously from Shaheen, another athlete of incredible mental talent) was :

1) The percentage of intervention on the performance for the "self confidence" in these athletes is very high. They are able to collect mental energies that, till few days before, seemed not to have, and because of this attitude they are able to achieve results in the race that, from their training, don't seem possible.

2) The total importance of "fresh mind" before training and competitions.

I could give him any type of workout, but I couldn't give him in a previous plan the days of recovery. They need to be fresh for carrying out workouts of very high intensity and very long extension, but have the ability to let their body to decide WHEN THEY CAN BE READY FOR THE NEXT WORKOUT OF HIGH INTENSITY. This is exactly the opposite of the Lydiard system.

3) They are motivated only by top targets. Don't ask Kenenisa, or Shaheen, after some injury, to come back in a competition of low level, or to run in anonymous way for training only (how many European and American do).

They go for staying with the leaders from the start, try till when it's possible, and when is no more possible drop out, BUT GO FOR THE MAX INTENSITY also if are not ready. In London, when I suggested Kenenisa to run with the second group (it was a pace under 2:06, optimal for his current shape), after one minute of thinking, he answered "My mind is not ready for running with weak runners".

The personal knowledge of psychology, general mentality and physical talent of some of the best runners all time is the reason because I KNOW (not I believe, I KNOW) they refuse any idea not only of doping, but also of any external aid. With doping, NEVER you can build an "ego" so strong like in the case of these phenomenal people, who have simply something more than the others.

I think this happens in every field : if we accept that we had Mozart able to create his wonderful music when was 10 years old, we had Einstein able to think in a way unknown for any other man on the earth, we had Leonardo da Vinci who was a genius in several fields, why we are not able to think that also in athletics sometime there is the phenomen, able to do something the other athletes can't do ? I had, and have, the opportunity to work with some of them and to know HOW they are inside their mind, while people writing here never had the opportunity to know somebody like them, and this is the reason for thinking everybody can have the same value, the same behavior, the same performance, and, if this doesn't happen, is only because there is some external aid called doping.

Which sadness.....

You cannot compare endeavors in which the final product is primarily a result of the brain/mind to those in which the final product is primarily a result of the physical capacity of the body. Somebody can be very physically talented compared with other athletes and also doped; the two are not mutually exclusive.

Regarding Ethiopia, the stack of meldonium positives this year and the Jama Aden fiasco with all the filled syringes of EPO, steroids and other products means that it is only normal and not sad that some people will view Ethipoian athletes with some suspicion. This is based on things that happened and not upon people being sick or paranoid about doping.

Tell me, how many Ethiopian athletes were banned for meldonium ? Are you sure that the big "scoop" we had at the beginning of the year is really correlated with something true ?

Do you remember when the English newspaper went out with the info of "55 athletes of Kenya were with suspicious values" after the fake investigation of some clown, such as Seppelt, Ashenden and Parisotto ? Looking at the results of 12000 test regarding 5500 athletes, that means 2.2 tests per athlete, when they well know that for having some VALID DATA every athlete MUST be tested not less than 7-8 times, and for having an OFFICIAL BAN they need to have not less than 10-12 tests ?

And another thing : do you really think that a drug used by marathon runners, swimmers, Sharapova, the captain of Volley in Russia, the Olympic Champion of shooting (who has to stand without moving), some wrestler, cyclists, and 490 athletes of EVERY DISCIPLINE in Baku, CAN REALLY HAVE SOME EFFECT ? Do you think that Meldonium, instead being produced in Latvia was produced in some Western Country, it was considered doping ?

About Jama, apart the fact nobody at the state of the art is sure 100% about his behavior, why do you speak about Ethiopians, when the ONLY ETHIOPIAN he coached was Genzebe ? So, does it mean ALL ETHIOPIAN are doped ? And you say that "these are based on things that happened" ?

Of course, when we look at some EXTRA-TALENT without many other similar in the World, they can also take some doping. But what we can't accept is that are considered doped because are the best, and people don't consider the possibility that are so much more talented (also mentally) than the other top athletes, that can achieve their results completely clean.

About blood doping, my position is very clear : doping can represent a shortcut for reaching the 90% of the aerobic level an athlete can reach with training only, BUT NEVER CAN BRIN SOME ATHLETE TO REACH THE LEVEL HE CAN REACH WITH THE BEST POSSIBLE TRAINING. And the best possible training and blood doping are not cumulable, so I can say that NEVER a doped athlete can reach the results he could reach WITHOUT DOPING, but with the best possible training (of course, in altitude).

This is my personal experience. Which is your personal experience ?

he answered "My mind is not ready for running with weak runners".

..... GANGSTA!

Renato,

I have nothing important to add to this conversation, however, I do want to thank you for taking the time to add your input to these boards. Posts like yours are the reason I keep coming back.

The Sunday Times investigation first looked at the samples and determined the total number of suspicious samples and the total number of athletes providing suspicious samples.

They came up with 12% suspicious samples and 15% of athletes providing suspicious samples.

Next Ashenden and Parisotto looked at 'multiple' samples from medallists at global championships over a period of time to determine suspicious medals won.

Renato: Is there a big difference between training for runners as Bekele, who comes from a long career on track, compared with Kipsang which as far as I know has been a marathon runner entire career.

When you see young runners with big talent for marathon, how long do you wait before move them up to full distance?

Renato, you talk about extra talents like Shaheen and Bekele, but what part of their morphology makes them extra talents? Do they have bigger hearts and denser lungs than other top talents? Do they have much bigger mitochondria?

Horizon wrote:

Renato,

I have nothing important to add to this conversation, however, I do want to thank you for taking the time to add your input to these boards. Posts like yours are the reason I keep coming back.

+1

thanks renato.

Please, don't call what Sunday Times did "investigation", call it a "scoop" that was built on the sand.

I always said that, without knowing the effects of training, nobody can speak about the effects of doping, when we speak about "blood doping".

I wrote a lot of stupidity, also in pseudo-scientific researches, about the data of the best athletes of endurance. The fact is that 98% of the researches were carried out with athletes of sea level, looking at the effects of training in altitude lasting short time (may be one month, maximum two months), and comparing the reaction they had with their basic values at sea level.

NEVER there was an official research with the best athletes in the world born, living and training ALWAYS in altitude.

If I ask some of the "scientists" who were involved in building the biological passport something about the "normal" data of these athletes, they are not able to give any information, for the simple fact that they DON'T HAVE.

For that reason, the "investigation" of Sunday Times was a scoop (exactly like the documentaries of Seppelt on Kenya) that was built for cheating people not having any knowledge about training, altitude, endurance and real values. And the "scientists" who accepted this game were not scientists (about this specific scoop), but "clowns", with clear goals that were not the "honest analysis" of the results.