greatest ever at 800m

is this a joke ???

for umpteenth time he was so ill, he shoudn't have been even running !!!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rkTPCspfwCI

his run was on asphalt, a nonsense surface

it is soft & spongy

get a clue :

it's what is used to re-surface roads !

Ryun's last 330y , let alone 220y or 200m was quantum leap above any on that list, especially coe, who parasited off cram until home stretch !!!

utterly pathetic tactics from coe

deplorable

here is a hugely unexpected WR

when ill !!!, off prelim earlier !!!, run wide most all the way !!!

it's most brutal last 330y ever !!!

this at just 19y was likely, fully rested & healthy, with no earlier prelim, on '70s track :

~ 1'40.00

http://video.lib.ku.edu/items/show/1525

in '67, he was quantum leap more mature at 20y & stronger & faster

the 800 shape more like :

1'39.25

seriously exhibited here in brief clip of last lap of moderately slow 1500 at bell on chewed-up dirt by 10k before :

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NUsEuv3Debs

I know we're talking about actual achievements, but if Alberto Juantorena isn't in the goat discussion, surely he had the potential to be up there and to have achieved even more than he did (a WR performance in the Olympic Games).

I read recently that he hadn't even seriously competed in the 800m before 1976. It was not even clear that he was the favourite for the race (the 400m which he was favourite for took place after the 800m). If you listen to David Coleman's commentary it's clear that Steve Ovett was considered at least a possible winner. Ovett had beaten Ivo Van Damme in the European Junior Championships 3 years earlier and then won silver at the senior Europeans in 1976 (as an 18 year old).

Juantorena won the world cup in 1977 holding off Mike Boit in 1.44.03. After that he had to have surgery on his feet and was never the same again, although still only 27. If he'd been running in paced races around the circuit and focused more on the 800m than the 400m, then surely he had the potential to run under 1.43?

Of course, he was probably doped being Cuban..

*Ovett won silver in the 1974 European Championships, and beat Van Damme in the juniors in 73 (Ivo Van Damme won the silver in 76 behind Juantorena).

I do realise that this is a bit irrelevant, but I am quite sure that one day, a few years of solid training later, Ivo Van Damme could've run faster than Coe's 1:41,73 if he didn't die. Why? Because he was still very young and his (speed) endurance was still developing. The guy ran the 400 in 46,X (can't remember the exact time, but it was like a half second faster than Coe's 400-pr of 46,84) and the 800 "only" in 1:43,86, so if he managed to get his efficiency better, wich he definetely could if he worked specifically on this, he could certainly have run 1:41,5 or so. Ofcourse this is pure speculation, but this man definetely could've been among the greatest 800m-runners if things didn't turn out the way they did.

Could say the same about Cruz when he was 21, but he never ran quicker.I don't know how you can be quite sure about it. You just don't know.

Ivd wrote:

I do realise that this is a bit irrelevant, but I am quite sure that one day, a few years of solid training later, Ivo Van Damme could've run faster than Coe's 1:41,73 if he didn't die. Why? Because he was still very young and his (speed) endurance was still developing. The guy ran the 400 in 46,X (can't remember the exact time, but it was like a half second faster than Coe's 400-pr of 46,84) and the 800 "only" in 1:43,86, so if he managed to get his efficiency better, wich he definetely could if he worked specifically on this, he could certainly have run 1:41,5 or so. Ofcourse this is pure speculation, but this man definetely could've been among the greatest 800m-runners if things didn't turn out the way they did.

What's your argument for Doubell?

2 Laps wrote:

FarOutMan wrote:

Has Ralph Doubell been mentioned? I could build a strong case for him Only gold, etc. But you Northern Hemisphere bigots would crap on the Aussie.

Bit of a generalisation! I don't think people identify themselves as Northern or Southern Hemisphere people!?

I wouldn't put Doubell in the discussion personally, but certainly Snell, who has to be in top 4.

Never mind Doubell. Doesn't figure.

SNELL is the correct answer.

With a dishonorable mention for Ryun's DVTT(tm) of 1:39.... actually, it seems 1:39.25 according to vento above, with a new level of precision.

jcruz wrote:Could say the same about Cruz when he was 21, but he never ran quicker

Cruz had congenital short leg & needed built-up shoe

his coach was shocked he even managed 1 good year in '84, when his fully rested koln shape was likely

1'41-flat/low

& he was coming of flu that epic week of 2'14.0 virtually undrafted / brace of 1'42-lows with wide bend running & hinderance in zurich before brussels / 1'41.77 !!!

if not for unfixable short leg, he wouda run close to 1'40-flat in his career but the pelvic tilt was already slowing/ruining him in '85

it's a miracle he almost stole gold in '88 !!!

Ereng likely in 1'42-flat shape that meet & aouita certainly 1'42-flat/low as he ran final in intrinsic 1'43-flat off just 1 good leg !!!

GigaDiLLLo wrote:Never mind Doubell. Doesn't figure.

SNELL is the correct answer.

With a dishonorable mention for Ryun's DVTT(tm) of 1:39.... actually, it seems 1:39.25 according to vento above, with a new level of precision.

the precision answer from me calculo ( who is vento ? ) is when i can access calculator

the best i can remember as bottom line estimate was at '67 peak on a '70s track in dusseldorf &/or coliseum &/or last mile record

only the Great Man can tell which of those was peak shape but it was likely :

44.00

1'38.97

3'24.22

deanoisgod wrote:*Ovett won silver in the 1974 European Championships, and beat Van Damme in the juniors in 73 (Ivo Van Damme won the silver in 76 behind Juantorena)

ovett made some big claim in his book published in '85

it was

~ i never ran with confidence chasing the clock

in milan '81 when i ran 3'31.95, i shouda run, if i had confidence & the pacing :

3'27 / 3'28

this is 100% accurate

this is the theoretical 1500 i get for ovett in '78, but he states this of '81 when he says he was in as good shape as '80

the 800 time then wouda been 1'42-flat/low off 3'27/3'28, IMO in '78 let alone '81/'80

ovett admitted what we all know

he was a wimp when chasing the clock & not willing to hurt himself to explore his limit

his limit he reckoned & i agree 100% was

3'27 / 3'28

Dave(GOAT)Wottle wrote:

Luckily for all of you I watched a stacked 800m just the other day. I'm not sure why they were running on grass, must of been for historic reasons or something. Anyway It was one hell of a race. Rudisha brought it thru 400 at 50.2 just a couple strides in front of Snell, Kipketer, Coe, and Amos. On the back straight Kipketer makes a move and him and Rudisha end up running side by side around the final turn; they slowly began to die and it looks like Snell is going to snag the win. But then out of no where some pasty white dude wearing a hat (Dave Wottle) comes out of no where to take the win. It was truly spectacular, wish more people were their to see it.

Leaving aside the boycott, in 1980 theoretically alongside Coe and Ovett you could have had Ivo Van Damme (died 1976) and Filbert Bayi (malaria) at their peaks. Juantereno (surgeries) was only 30 and defending champion. Dave Wottle was still only 29, and even Jim Ryun was still at 33 theoretically competitive (if not retired/burnt out).

calculo wrote:

ovett made some big claim in his book published in '85

it was

~ i never ran with confidence chasing the clock

in milan '81 when i ran 3'31.95, i shouda run, if i had confidence & the pacing :

3'27 / 3'28

this is 100% accurate

this is the theoretical 1500 i get for ovett in '78, but he states this of '81 when he says he was in as good shape as '80

the 800 time then wouda been 1'42-flat/low off 3'27/3'28, IMO in '78 let alone '81/'80

Nothing Ovett did statistically over 1500 or mile in 81 or indeed 78, backs his claim to have been able to run 3:27/3:28. Yes, he believes 81 was his best year, but he was pretty even from 78 - 81.

He only managed 1:44.0 in 78 off a sub 50 400m and with plenty of drafting. He was possibly capable of breaking the 800 WR that year in the right race, but I don't see him any faster than 1:42 high - 1:43 flat.

For 1500 he could definitely have run sub 3:30, but 3:27 is pushing it. 3:29 in 80/81 is about right.

is this a joke ?

predictor offered him

~ 3'28

in '78 but off unknown speed

ovett was huge powerful guy at 5'11 with big speed but too much mileage to show his brute speed until fully rested

he never fully rested !!!

if, as i suspect, his speed was quicker than i input because he never rested, then ovett had 100% legit claim to

~ 3'27

in '78

his lines of fit therefore are :

46.50 / 1'42.25 ->

3'27.45

8'06.13

or

46.25 / 1'42.00 ->

3'27.40

8'07.15

i 100% believe ovett couda run 1'42-flat/low / 3'27+ in '78

he says he had no confidence chasing clock & he didn't

it was sad to see how bad ovett chased clock when so obviously unconfident

'78 was best year from observation

he claims '81 was his best shape but didn't look it

he claims he was in better shape in '81 than '80 which is huge statement, meaning he wouda given coe huge thrashing over 1500 if both in peak shape for brussels

is this a joke ???

he was drafted by a runt !!!

it was freezing miserable weather & ovett said if he knew he wouda been dragged thru in 49-high, he wouda stepped off the track !!!

he ran nearly 5s +ve splits !!!

worth ~ 1.0s off 2s +ve splits

then he threw away time sitting on coe too long, coe was was finished

he was angry with himself not blasting past finished coe by 500 - 600

that cost him him maybe 1/2s

then also he had to run lot wide on last bend passing coe, worth 1.5 - 2m

this ->

1'44.09 - 1.0 for splits - 0.5s for sitting on coe - 0.25s for wide on last bend

->

1'42.34

all this after rounds in freezing miserable weather !!!

ovett was in 1'42-flat shape in a zurich of '78 in warm weather off 50-flat

no

absolutely destroying it

& he hadn't even trained for the 800 !!!

analyse better

1'42-flat

& he hadn't even trained for the 800 !!!

he was an endurance monster

3'27+ definitely possible in '78 perhaps even '77 or '81, but he says not in '81 shape in '80

no

he says he was in better shape in '81 than '80

learn to research

calculo wrote:

in '78 but off unknown speed

46.50 / 1'42.25 ->

3'27.45

8'06.13

or

46.25 / 1'42.00 ->

3'27.40

8'07.15

LOL.

Shows you haven't a clue. We do know Ovett's speed in 78, because he ran a 22.9 200m and a 47.4 relay leg in competition, the weeks before the European Champs. He also ran an open 400m of 48.4 the month before Prague.

At best, that 47.4 relay (he also ran a 47.3 relay in July), suggests at best an open 400 ability of 48 flat. This is backed up by his 200m of 22.9. No one who can only run 22.9 from a 200m is capable of 46 flat!

There is no evidence at all that Ovett was in 46 flat form. The 3 pieces of evidence (above) we have suggests 48 flat. I'm willing to go as far as possibly 47.5 in the right competition, but you have just made up 46 seconds.

The rest of your ramblings and unproven calculator conversions falls apart based on woeful analysis of his 400m speed.

The 8:13 2 miles was worth 7:40 for 3000m. Again, there is no basis for taking 6 seconds off and claiming he could run 8:06. No evidence.

Ovett was down to race Coe in Brussels 81 mile. He chose to run a nothing 800m in Norway instead. He could have run against Coe in the Oslo mile too, when Coe asked to run, but Ovett said no. No comparison in their closing splits in their last mile WR runs.